Tuesday, June 22, 2010

Are Tamils, dravidians?? (World Tamil conference series -3)

My series in Tamil on this question can be read here:-

தமிழன், திராவிடனா?

The Chief Minister M. Karunanidhi has said that the World Classical Tamil conference is being organised to highlight the greatness of art, culture, literature and civilisation of Dravidians. The logo is framed with the icons of the Indus Valley civilization. There are going to be displays of themes of Indus civilization. I don't know what the papers to be presented are going to talk about - about Indus culture showcased as Dravidian culture? I don't know why they named this conference as Tamil Conference when their love is for Dravidian identity. I don't know why no one from Tamilnadu raised any objection to bringing in the Dravidan tag.

Lots of research have happened in the Indus basin and in genetics that have established that there was no Aryan invasion and no Dravidan dislocation either. Any Tamil - if he has read something of the olden sangam texts would also know that Tamils were not known as Dravidians and that they did not hail from the Indus basin. I am really surprised to see the Chief minister relying on the Dravidian stuff of the Indus basin while simultaneously claiming himself to be knowledgeable in Tamil - in முத்தமிழ்!!!

The dravidian school harps on a group of languages supposed to be derived from or related to Tamil. That does not make Tamil a Dravidian language. Another facet of this Dravidian school is to club the people speaking these languages into one group. There is another view of terming Dravidian as a race. All these are now proved to be untenable. You talk about the so-called Dravidian languages, no kannadika would agree that his language is derived from Tamil. No Telugu also would say so. And the day is not far off for them to get their languages declared as Classical languuage! So all these are about politics. But I dont think any Kannadiga or Telugu would go to the extent of mortgaging their language to a notion to call it Dravidian. Only Tamilnadu politicians do that - blissfully oblivious of the latest outcomes of the researches.

The Dravidian concept itself is now found to be a colonial invention. But at the bottom of it remains a question how this term Dravida came into existence and why or in what context it was used. The answer for this can be found in the local traditions only and not by analysing the tradition from a foreign researcher's point of view.

The word Dravida is found in 5 places in Brihat Samhitha of Varahamihira. It does not denote a people or a race, but a geographic location. That location has nothing to do with the Indus basin or the Harappan sites. Its location is mentioned in clear cut terms while explaining the division of land in the name of Kurma Chakra.

The ancient Bharatha varsha before the times of Varaha mihira (whose time is said to be anywhere between 1st century BC to the 5 th century AD) was divided into 9 parts in the order of 27 stars of the zodiac. It is depicted in the form of Kurma or Tortoise with a madhya desa (central province) surrounded by countries on 8 directions. Starting from the central province, the description goes through east, south east, south, south west, west, north west, north and northeast. Stars starting from Krittikia are assigned to these regions, 3 each. Why I say all these details is that even today astrologers rely on this division of the land with respective directions and asterisms to predict mundane effects such as earthquakes, eclipse-effects and other calamities for a particular region.

As per this division, the present day regions of Haryana, Delhi, Uttar Pradesh and Saraswathy river (called as Harappan sites) and Yamuna basin formed the central region. From that the east, south east, south, south west are defined.

According to the details given by Varahamihira, the place called Dravida comes in the South west whereas Tamil lands of Chola, kerala, kaveri, Kanchi, Tamraparani, simhala (srilanka) etc come in the south. Andhra belongs to the South east.

Chapter 14, verses 11 to 16 make a mention of the names of countries in the South. All the names of the South are given here to understand how the south was defined and what countries and towns were there in the South. The south seas (Indian ocean), Cholas, Cheras, Kaveri, Tamiraparani, Kancheepuram etc are mentioned here. There is a mention of countries of Tamingilasana which sounds like thamilagam (தமிழகம்).

Take a look at the countries and towns of the South:-

Ceylon, Kalanjana, SaurIkIrna, TAlikata, mountains of Giri, Nagara, Dardura, Mahendra, MAlindya, coutries of Broach.

Kankata, Tunkana, VanavAsi, Shibika, Phanikara, Konkana, AbhIra, The river VenA (பெண்ணை ஆறு ?), the countries of Avanti, Dashapura, Gonarda, Kerala.

Carnata, the forest of Mahatavi, the mopuntains of ChithrakUta, the countries of Nasikya (Nasik?), kolla, Giri, Chola, Kraunchadweepa, JatAdhara, the river Kaveri, the mountain of Rishyamuka,

The islands of Vaidoorya dweepa (lakshdweep?) sankadweepa, Mukta dweepa, Trivichara dweepa, Dhurma pattana dweepa (all these are in the seas, perhaps in the southern seas or in the adjoining seas in the east and the west.)

The countries of Ganarajya, of Krishna, (?) Velluru (Velore ?), the Pesika, SUrpa, and Kusumanaga mountains.

The forests of Thumbavana, KArmaneyakas, the South Sea, the countries of TApasAsrama, Rsihas, KAnchI (Kancheepuram), MAruchIpattana, Cherya (Chera ?) Arya (?) Simhala (srilanka ?) Rishabha.

The town of Baladeva (?), the forest of Dandaka. the countries of Tamingilasana (countries / towns of Tamilnadu?), Bhadra, Cutch (kacchath theevu?), Kunjaradhari, TAmraparani (river).

The mention of Dravida comes in the South west which runs along with the western ghats in Karnataka, Maharshtra and Gujarat.

In verse 19 of this chapter we find a mention of Hema giri, Sindhukalaka, Raivataka, Saurashtra, BAdara, Dravida and Maharnava in the South west of the Kurma chakra.

This division is followed for all predictions of mundane issues.

The southern countries are ruled by Uttra phalguni, Hastham and Chithra. Indian ocean, Kanchi, Kaveri, Chola, Chera and Tamingilasana come under these stars.

The South western countries that include Dravida are ruled by Swathi, Vishaka and Anuradha.

So there is a clear demarcation between Dravida and Tamil lands.

The region of Dravida covers Karnataka. In numerous posts in this blog I have brought out who these Dravidas could be.

Who were the Dravidans?

No Aryan and no Dravidian either!

The people who were dislocated in the wake of submergence of Dwaraka were brought to the South by Sage Agsthya and they settled down throughout the regions of the the eastern parts of the western ghars. Kudremukh is a major region which is mentioned as Kuthirai malai in Pura nanuru. The Velirs who were regarded as the 3rd chain of Philanthropists (கடை ஏழு வள்ளல்கள்) ruled from Kuthirai malai (குதிரை மலை )

பறம்பு மலைப் பாரி, கொல்லி மலை வல்வில் ஓரி, மலையன் காரி, அதியமான், ஆய் (அண்டிரன்), பேகன், நள்ளி இவர்கள் அனைவருமே குதிரை மலையுடன் தொடர்பு கொண்டவர்கள். புறநானூறு 158 - இல் இந்த ஏழு வள்ளல்கள் பற்றிய குறிப்பு காணலாம். மேலும் அகம் 12 - இலும், சிறு பாணாற்றுப் படையிலும், குறுந்தொகை 80 - இலும் காணலாம். இவர்கள் அனைவருமே வேளிர் வம்சத்தினர். அகத்தியரால் துவாரகையிலிருந்து அழைத்து வரப்பட்டவர்கள் வேளிர்கள். அவர்களை தமிழக மூவேந்தர்கள் என்றுமே அங்கீகரித்ததில்லை.

புறநானூறு 168 - இல் சூசகமாக இதைக் காணலாம். அப்பாடல் 'ஊராக் குதிரைக் கிழவ' என்று குதிரை மலைத் தலைவனான பிட்டனைப் போற்றுவது. அவனது தயாள குணத்தால், பரிசில் பெரும் புலவர்கள் அவனை வாழ்த்திப் பாடுவர்.

எப்படிப் பாடுவர்?
'வையக வரைப்பில் தமிழகம் கேட்பப்
பொய்யாச் செந்நா நெளிய வேத்திப்
பாடுப வென்ப பரிசிலர் நாளும்..'

இதற்கு உரை ஆசிரியர் (டா உ.வே. சா. கண்டெடுத்த உரை) "உலகத்து எல்லையுள் தமிழ் நாடு கேட்க, பொய்யாத செவ்விய நா வருந்தும்படி வாழ்த்திப் பாடுவர் என்று சொல்லுவர் பரிசிலர், நாடொறும்" என்று எழுதி உள்ளார்.

அதாவது குதிரை மலை தமிழக நிலம் அல்ல. அங்கு ஆண்ட பிட்டன் உள்ளிட்ட வேளிர் தமிழர் அல்லர். ஆயினும் அவர்கள் தமிழில் பேசினர், அவர்தம் குடியினர் தமிழ் பேசுபவர். அவரைப் பாடிய புலவர்களும் தமிழ் அறிந்தோரே. அவரை வாழ்த்திப் பாடிய பாடல்கள், எல்லையில் உள்ள தமிழ் நாட்டில் கேட்க வேண்டும் என்று புலவர் பாடுவர் என்று பரிசு வாங்குவோர் சொல்வர் என்கிறார் புலவர் கருவூர் கந்தப் பிள்ளை சாத்தனார்.

What is established in these lines is that Tamilnadu was different from the regions ruled by Velirs. In this poem, the land of the Velir king was Kudremukh which is part of Karnataka now. The Tamil kings could not accpet the Velirs and were all the times at loggerheads with them. One popular example is that Paari, a Velir king. These kings and numerous other sects brought by Agasthya had embraced the Tamillands as theirs. They seemed to know Tamil even before hand. Otherwise they could not have patronized Tamil and Tamil poets and earned the disticntion as patrons. Poetess Ouvaiyaar and poet Kapilar were well known personalities who have sung in praise of Velir Kings. Unless Tamil had been a widely spoken language, such an easy adaptation could not have happened.

Even the division of lands into 5 with Mullai lands of forest tracts seems to be introduced to accommodate the people of Dwaraka after their migration. Tholkaappiyar, originally known as Trunathumaagni, the foremost disciple of Agasthya spoke first about the lands allotted to migrated cowherds. 'காடழித்து நாடாக்கி' அந்த மக்களுக்கு வாழ இடம் செய்து தரப்பட்டது என்று நச்சினார்க்கினியர் தொல்காப்பியப் பாயிர உரையில் கூறுகிறார். They later came to be called as Dravidas - ' those who ran away' by their kin who chose to migrate towards North through the Saraswathy Basin (which is now excavated as Harappan regions). The traces of those people settled in those areas are known as Indus Civilization. No wonder they share commonality with the people of the South because of the fusion of those people in Tamil lands.

Moreover unless Tamil had been a well known language of those times throughout Bharatha varsha - similar to how Hindi is known over most areas of India today - the easy merger with locals could not have happened for the Velirs. Their area of concentration was the present day Karnataka. That is why Dravida land was located in that part - along with Saurashtra in the Kurma Chakra from Pre-Varahamihira times onwards.

Finally it is all about the same culture throughout Bharatha varsha and predominance of Tamil throughout India. Tamil in Tamilnadu had retained its pristine purity. But the migrants from Dwaraka who must have known Sanskrit fused the two languages in course of time that gave rise to Kannada. Today the Kannadigas also have asked for classical status for Kannada. They quote the similarity of their language with the classical language, sanskrit. But the mix of Tamil in their language can not be disputed. Kannada is a by-product of two languages, perhaps fit enough to be called as Dravidian language as their area was called as Dravida in olden days.

Tamil on the other hand is different and unique. It is idiotic to deny the uniqueness of Tamil and ape for some Indus connection. The tradition and culture revealed by Sangam texts is intact. Violation of it by these brainless politicians is something unpardonable. Some day Historians will understand the truth of Tamil identity as unconnected with Dravidian identity. Let the Tamil speaking population shake off themselves from the brain washing and understand the truth.

In this connection, it must be said that the State song of Tamil the தமிழ்த் தாய் வாழ்த்து looks absurd and redundant with its praise for dravida naadu in the place of Tamil nadu.

நீராருங் கடலுடுத்த நிலமடந்தைக் கெழிலொழுகும்
சீராரும் வதனமெனத் திகழ்பரத கண்டமிதில்

தக்கசிறு பிறைநுதலும் தரித்தநறுந் திலகமுமே
தெக்கணமும் அதிற்சிறந்த திராவிடநல் திருநாடும்

அத்திலக வாசனைபோல் அனைத்துலகும் இன்பமுற
எத்திசையும் புகழ் மணக்க இருந்தபெருந் தமிழணங்கே.

உன் சீரிளமைத் திறம்வியந்து செயல்மறந்து வாழ்த்துதுமே.
- மனோன்மணீயம் சுந்தரனார்

The best salutation to Tamizhth thaai would be to call her lands as Tamil lands and not as Dravida lands.

The best tribute to her would be to bring out and publicize the Culture shown in Sangam texts and not that hypothesized from the Indus basin.

The best research would be to establish that Tamil was spoken throughout the Bharatha varsha as common man's language. Tamil was not confined to Tamilnadu alone.


The Tamils have existed in all glory at the time of Mahabharatha. Krishna and Mahabharatha are not myths as we have proof of underwater excavations off Dwaraka showing submerged civilization some 5000 years ago. We in India have been keeping the record of time since the beginning of Kaliyuga, which started when Krishna departed. The Indus civilization is post-Krishna period. Read this post:-

Krishna, a reality – archeological proof.

The following are the information on Tamil kings and Tamil lands in the South as given in Mahabharatha. Remember these kings lived in the present day Tamilnadu before the advent of Indus civilization. This is given here to show how absurd it is to relate Tamils to Indus civilization while they were well established in the South even before the onset of Indus civilization.

# Mbh.8.12.471
They consisted of Dhrishtadyumna and Shikhandi and the five sons of Draupadi and the Prabhadrakas, and Satyaki and Chekitana with the Dravida forces, and the Pandyas, the Cholas

# Mbh.7.23.1149
The mighty Sarangadhwaja, endued with wealth of energy, the king of the Pandyas, on steeds of the hue of the moon's rays and decked with armour set with stones of lapis lazuli, advanced upon Drona, stretching his excellent bow.

# Mbh.7.23.1151
Obtaining weapons then from Bhishma and Drona, Rama and Kripa, prince Sarangadhwaja became, in weapons, the equal of Rukmi and Karna and Arjuna and Achyuta.

# Mbh.7.23.1155
Steeds that were all of the hue of the Atrusa flower bore a hundred and forty thousand principle car-warriors that followed that Sarangadhwaja, the king of the Pandyas.

# Mbh.2.14.593
And, O king of kings, Bhishmaka, the mighty king of the Bhojas, the friend of Indra, the slayer of hostile heroes, who governs a fourth part of the world, who by his learning conquered the Pandyas and the Kratha-Kausikas, whose brother the brave Akriti was like Rama, the son of Jamdagni, hath become a servitor to the king of Magadha.

# Mbh.3.88.4821
And, O Yudhishthira, in the country of the Pandyas are the tirthas named Agastya and Varuna!

# Mbh.7.11.414
The Avantis, the Southerners, the Mountaineers, the Daserakas, the Kasmirakas, the Aurasikas, the Pisachas, the Samudgalas, the Kamvojas, the Vatadhanas, the Cholas, the Pandyas,


".......Duryodhana said O sinless one listen to me as I describe that large mass of wealth consisting of various kinds of tribute presented unto Yudhishthira by the kings of the earth......the kings of Chola and Pandya though they brought numberless jars of gold filled with fragrant sandal juice from the hills of Malaya, and loads of sandal and the aloe wood from the Dardduras hills and many gems of great brilliancy and fine cloths inlaid with gold didnot obtain permission to enter, and the king of the Singhalas gave those best of sea-born gems called the lapis lazuli and heaps of pearls also and hundreds of coverlets for elephants. And numberless dark-coloured men with the ends of their eyes red as copper attired in cloths decked with gems waited at the gate with those presents......"


Chandra said...

I did not read the entire writing with concentration. But I must appreciate your research and presenting Tamil and Dravidian in correct perspective.

As for as MK is concerned he just does anything to promote him self and fool his Tamils to get votes and rule for some more years.He has no interest what so ever in Tamils. Had he real interest to promote Tamil language will he not ask his TV news readers to speak correct Tamil. Will he not see that Tamils and Tamil are not degraded in various program in His own kalignar and SUN TV

Raghavan said...

I came across your blog by chance when i was searching for solar flare discussion.
You have brought out your arguments nicely. I have been working towards understanding hinduism in its entirety and how it relates to india. Aryan invasion theory is written about in all history books on india i came across and all start abt Rig Vedic culture after the invasion. In your blog you have stated Aryan invasion never happened. I too have been wanting to find out about Aryans. Recently i read they found a city in Siberia believed to be built by Aryans. Also study suggests that Indo european languages share a common origin, and that is believe to be Aryan Language. Could the migration from Dwarka have been mistaken for Aryan invasion? Also how big was Bharata Varsha. I believe it was much bigger than present India.
Also on another note, have you heard on Aintiram written by Maya Muni. It talks about architecture as vaasthu, taking the structure as vibrating objects. This exactly matches the string theory on universe which is being broadly accepted now a days. Even the curvature of space time proven by Theoretical phsyics was stated in the text it seems.
I would like to discuss more on these and other related subjects as I found you research eye opening and deep. I will be grateful if you could reply to my comment to my mail id. raghavgswaminathan@gmail.com and interested to discuss on these topics.

Thanks and Regards,
Chennai - India

Anonymous said...

Thanks for posting such a nice piece of information.
Tamil nadu politicians are just using Tamil sentiments to ensure a healthy vote bank in favour of them.
So far,I have had this misconception of Tamils being Dravidians.
Saidas Sankaran
October 10,2010 4:30 PM