Sunday, January 8, 2012

Who were Aryas and Dravidas (continued)

Continuation from the previous post

Who were Aryas and Dravidas?

If only Tilak, the author of the Arctic origins had been alive today, he would not have proposed those views, for, with the advancement of scientific tools to know the movement of man, we are getting better insight in our understanding of our scriptures.  As I told in the article, Puranas do talk of people having lived near both the Polar Regions and not just the North Pole. It is told in numerous places in Puranas, that Devas have lived in the Southern region also where the day extended for 6 months! Their lord, Indra in that region of the South was known by another name  Naganatha – which means 'the lord of snakes'! Such a name was given because they lived in underground tunnels like snakes. The opposite of this occurred in the Northern region where they lived on the mountains. Please recall my article on dwellings above the ground level which you quoted in your blog.

The current growth of populations has sprung from the South according to genetic researches.  The explosion of Mt Toba about 70,000 years ago, fits with the Puranic allusion of Shiva slaying Tripuarntaka with a bow. This happened in the Asura land – which means somewhere in the South. Though it is an Asura land, the Devas were present there. They were disturbed by the Tripura asuras and therefore sought the help of Shiva to slay the asuras. What were the Devas doing in the South, in the Asura domain, if their location is near the North Pole?  This question could not have been answered convincingly even a few decades ago, when we were not aware of Mt Toba and the genetic researches. With the revelations of these two studies, we are able to understand what this Puranic allusion stands for. I have written this in my blog on the Mystery of Toba.

Mystery of Mt Toba (Sundaland) explained through Puranas!

The people of the globe had shifted between north and south periodically due to climate and other factors that facilitate habitation.  The North Polar Region was beyond the bounds of human habitation when Mt Toba erupted.  But people had lived around the vicinity of Toba –something confirmed by genetic studies.  Devas have survived so also Maya! Maya was identified on the basis of his maternal lineage in Hindu texts.

There is reference to one male lineage mingling with 13 females as shown in the marriage of sage Kashyapa marrying 13 daughters of Prajapathi (the progenitor for people).  The off springs of each of them are known separately of which only a few are surviving till today.

One of them are Danavas,  coming in the lineage of Danu. Maya came in that lineage. I consider that this lineage had peopled most of Europe taking a route from Atlantic Ocean (through Atlantis which is same as Romaka Desa of Maya of Surya Siddhantha) and entered through West Europe. 

Another lineage born to Diti were all mentioned as having inhabited the South only. They were called as Daityas and their location could have been around Sundaland, China or even Africa.

Yet another lineage is that of Manavas, the lineage of Manu who are the people of India.

There is no direct reference to Devas but I concur that this is the early migrant people from the South after the impact of eruption of Mt Toba subsided. It is worth mentioning here that Bhaskara, a 12th century astronomer of India had said in his book Siddhantha Shiromani that 4 types of people lived in the world, namely Devas, Asuras (Daityas), Danavas and Manavas.

The genetic studies show an early group moving through India and to the Nothern regions. This had happened 40,000 years ago and lasted until the Ice age set in. This fits with the description of Polar Devas.  Their prevalence ended before 10,000 years ago which I find corresponding with the extinct of Woolly Mammoth, the elephants found in extreme North. Indra (leader of Devas) was known for his elephant, named Iravatha.

At that time and until that time, India was sparsely populated. Graham Hancock's maps on the vegetation of India give us the reason.

The region of Sarasvathy where Vedas flourished was a desert about 21,300 years ago. Only the southern part –  Tamil nadu and the western fringes of had the climate and vegetation for living.  These regions were peopled by early Tamils. The western shore was occupied by Manu (Dravideswara).

By 10,000 years BP, Manu had entered the North western mainland through river Sarasvathy and spread gradually throughout the Indian main land as it became increasingly habitable.



This pic shows scope for movement of people from the edges of India to mainland India.  The migration to India had happened from the South and not from the North. The Himalayas had stood tall as a Northern barrier and the only opening in the North West India also had posed a barrier for people beyond that. Because the dry lands at that time in that region would not have held anything for people outside that North West region to come to this part of India. On the other hand the coastal people from the south and west would have found a vast opportunity to spread within India and flourish. That is what had happened.

Now coming to the question of Devas, the early population had moved from Southern hemisphere to the North about  40,000 years ago according to genetic studies. The occupation at deep North is identified with Devas according to Hindu texts. That is what Tilak also had said. But the current studies show that this occupation had happened before historic times about which we have no substantial information. We do not have extra inputs from Puranas  other than the information that their days and nights were 6 months long. Whatever else we have in the texts, is about the interaction with Kings.

To name them, Mandhatha, an early ancestor of both Rama of Ramayana and Chola, a Tamil king was a friend of Indra and had helped him in guarding his city (Amaravathy) in his absence. There was one Uparichara vasu, a king in the region on Himalayas north of Mt Kailash being a friend of Indra. Then there was an account of Ravana's son having imprisoned Indra in Lanka! That incident gave him the title Indrajit. Kings like Ravana and others had visited Deva land. But there was no account of Devas having interacted with manavas (people) of India! No one had seen Indra and Devas!! A veil of secrecy and supremacy was maintained by them when it came to people. That is why I say strongly say that there was no mix up of people with beings of Deva land.

On the question of Vedas coming from Devas, no it is not so. The Vedas were conceived by sages of Bharat (ancient India). One strong reason to say is that the Vedas and Vedic rituals are inseparable with astrology! You will find this mentioned by Tilak in his other book The Orion. The Vedic ritual itself means Year! The rituals go on throughout the year. The year is known by the seasons and the ayanas (solstices), the stars of the day and the thithi of the day (the distance between Sun and the moon in a day) and so on.  This division of time comes upto day and night (ahoratra) which is more or less equally divided and known by Hora which changes every hour. Such as division works only in the tropics and more accurately near the Equator. Another factor is that the seasonal noting on Vedas and rituals fit with Indian Climate only and not even with Middle east.  Without this time factor, Vedas and Vedic rituals are redundant. Therefore there is no chance to relate the Vedas with North pole or say that it was transferred from the North Pole. 

In the period between 10,000 and 5000 years, Uttar Kuru had gained importance. This was the period when the dissipated population around the North pole had found a home at lower latitudes. We say that the Deva culture had degraded by this time and what remained was only the urge to retain the secrecy about themselves. This is what we gather from Ramayana, Mahabharata and Vishnu purana which speak of this land as keeping its doors shut for outsiders. Only a few kings have interacted with them. The 5 Pandavas and Karna had the beings of this land as their biological fathers. That is the only connection of India with Uttar Kuru.

Lastly on Tilak's version of Orion period, I must say that he has understood it wrong. The star of the Orion which is called as Mrigashirsha in India stands for a philosophical import. We in India, particularly in Tamilnadu piously follow the rituals in the month denoted by this star (called as Agrahayani in Vedic times and also mentioned so by Tilak in the Orion). This month is currently on. The location of that star is shown below. My article on this can be read here:-


 The fact was that Tilak misread this star for equinox.  The precession of equinox as seen from the earth is limited by the sway of the tilt of the earth. Vedic sages have identified it as moving to and from for 27 degrees on both sides of the zero degree of Aries. It can be depicted as follows.


A detailed article on this can be read here:-

Indian calendar is more scientific than what scientists think!

The star of the Orion that Tilak mentions does not come within the seeing range of equinoxes. Tilak was obviously excited by the space science that existed at his time. We have now come a long way from then. This precession as witnessed from the earth can be checked through modern astronomy models.

Speaking on stars, I am reminded of the star Canopus, that Vedic people were obsessed with. There are allegorical stories on this star to show the change in the tilt of the earth. The interesting g feature is that this is a southern star. It is visible throughout the year in the South pole. The Vedic ritual which finds a special mention in Varahamihira's Brihad Samhita is about the time of heliacal rising of this star. This rising is visible only upto  37-18 degree North, that is upto North India.

This star is known as sage Agasthya, who is more identified with Tamil. There is no difficulty in viewing it in South India. But if the people of the South or South India had migrated to the North about 12,000 years ago, they cloud not have viewed it. But when they started viewing it gradually over time as the earth's tilt changed, they had welcomed it with glee and made it into a ritual with Vedic mantras.  

Why should they welcome this star if it has no connection with them in early times (which they would have viewed all round the year in their early home in the South)?

On the contrary, what relevance this star has for the people if they had come from Northern latitudes as they would have never known this star? 


Sri Rama said...


We hear in our puranas for example Agasthya muni drinking entire ocean to help the demi-gods in the war with demons. Sometimes doubts come why this does not happen in our times. We openly see one family in particular that has been the bane of this land. They are prospering well and destroyed/destroying the future of generations of people so that only the next generation of their family succeed them and they decide the future of the society and make sure people are always begging/fighting. And it is our own people helping them. Now this model is aped in all the states by various different families and is destroying the very foundation. This model is very difficult to beat for a common man.

And to add to it we have unfriendly neighbors. I am concerned to say I cannot do a single thing about it except look at the stars and hope it does good for Bharat Varsha. I can only pray to Lord Krishna that this land has to be preserved in its originality so that it gives directions to mankind for ages to come.

Mam, is relief in sight?

Please send an email reply if posting an answer is not possible on the blog.

Jai Sri Rama.

nutwit said...


I guess a few questions remain.
Who were these devas? Were they humans too, walking on 2 legs etc?
Why were they shy of humans? Or is it just so that they didnt have contact with Bharata varsha alone?


jayasree said...

@ Nutwit,
A similar question was asked earlier in the post "why ban Gita when Russia has a Vedic past?'

There I have given an explanation which I am re-posting here.
"Hindu scriptures speak of Devas in 3 levels, - as divinities, as cosmological / geological symbolisms and as physically manifest beings who occupied the regions near North Pole when conditions were conducive for living. If you can read Tamil, go to this link (my Tamil Blog) and read articles numbered 19,20 and 21 where I have described these 3 manifestations of Indra.

Until the onset of Ice Age in the North that peaked around 17,000 years BP, Devas had reigned supreme. By 10,000 years BP, they almost vanished. Perhaps they were the Denisovans who have become extinct now.
Read my old post :-

At the time of extreme climatic conditions there, the people have moved through the land link to North America and went along the west course and settled as Incas, Pueblos etc. The resemblance to those people was brought out in my old post

According to genetic studies, it is also known that they (in deva territory) migrated southwards and mingled with Central Europeans . By and large there was huge reduction in their population during that period. With that the glory of Devas came to an end. What remained after that was a life of pleasure and gratification of desires. That was manifest in Uttar kuru. The mention of Uttar kuru starts from this period only.

But when Uttarkuru culture took shape, Vaivasvatha Manu has entered Saraswathy from the south carrying strict Hindu dharmic rules. (read and take note of the maps in this post to understand what I say -

By then the Ghandarvas and apsaras – remnant beings ofUttarkuru had come down from the North upto the Himalayas. When Vaivasvatha Manu entered Bharath, they were there inhabiting Himayalas. Manu’s daughter Aila and his eldest son had mingled with them. Aila further moved northwards and became a link between Uttarkuru and people of Bharath (Dakshin Kuru). Even today there are people having surname as Aila or Ila both in Central Europe and North India. I even came across a rock inscription of Chiththanna vassal dated at 2nd Century AD mentioning some “Ilayar” clan. In Sivaganga also there exists a people by name ‘Ilaya’. This is prehistoric clan with maternal lineage – part of Indian people but fanned out throughout Europe very long ago."

jayasree said...

"The Kurus of Uttarkuru were old Kurus who migrated from the South long ago. This is made out from Yudhistira’s justification of Draupadi marrying 5 brothers. Yudhistira belongs to Kuru clan. His ancestors who already settled in Siberia were called as Uttar kurus. They had no restriction on taking spouses. He quotes these ancestors of Uttarkuru and their habit of a woman having many spouses to justify Draupadi’s marriage. In my opinion the biological fathers of the Pandavas were the beings of Uttarkuru which was a degraded version of Deva land.

By the time of Mahabharatha, Uttarkuru attained the status of ‘Bhoga Bhumi’ –( land of pleasures). There were 6 such lands of pleasures mentioned in Tamil texts too. In Deep South also, there existed one Ghandarva land and a Bhoga Bhumi. The word Ghandarva itself denotes free life.

As civilisation progressed, this kind of free life was frowned upon. It happened in the Indian sub continent. Manu’s strict rules for women might perhaps be the result of the already –in – existent culture of Apsaras/ Ghandarvas and Uttar kurus near the Himalayas.

The glorification of Rama and Sita was perhaps due to the fact they chose to keep away from the then existing practice on many spouses. In Valmiki Ramayana, when Rama and Sita met sage Agasthya for the first time, Agasthya’s first talk was on Sita’s loyalty to her husband. He says that among women who change husbands when they lose wealth and kingdom, Sita stood out and did not desert Rama even after he lost kingdom and was sent to the forest.

This is the same issue that Ravana kept repeating when he wanted to persuade her to marry him. This is the same issue for which Agasthya reprimanded his wife Lopamudra suspecting her fidelity.

The free life was considered as a natural way of life, but was not recommended for spiritual growth for which one has to have control of senses. That is where Hindu Dharmic rules come into place. It may also be recalled that Devas had a feeble control over their senses. Indra – the lord of Devas- was also mentioned at several places erring on that account. The name Indra itself means Indriyas – the sensory perceptions. The Devas had all the other lofty tendencies, but had a weakness in controlling their senses.

Are there descendants of Devas today (in Russia)?

This is like probing – are there descendants of Rama?

Perhaps and perhaps not.
Some distant link in genes may still exist, but the culture and core group had completely vanished. In Hinduism we say that any trace of a particular influence (lets call it gene ) can have its presence in some form only for 14 generations and before and 14 generations after. What existed before 14 generations and going to come after 14 generations would have no connection to the one we had as a reference point.
Read my post on 14 generations after Rama.

jayasree said...

I have mentioned the name "Aila" - the daughter of Vaivasvatha Manu. That signifies a maternal lineage that went through India to Far North. I have mentioned that there are names as Aila or Ila in Tamilnadu and in North India too. They may be the descendants of this female lineage but do not belong to the Far North. There is no reverse migration to India as per Puranic inputs and genetics from Far North.

jayasree said...

Dear Mr SriRama,

We are in the age of Kali and definitely there will be a deterioration in values and Dharma. The clock is not going to go back now. The deterioration is identified in terms of fall in the Dharmic sense of the Ruler. No need to tell about the adhjarmic nature of current ruling system in India. The judiciary is also falling down.

The same perpetrators of adharma are going to be reborn and would get live in a worser situation to pay off their karma. So how can we expect betterment to come up.I have no hope for India in the foreseeable future as far as sense of dharma getting prevailed.

In this situation, those who have a dharmic sense and have the buddhi to understand a dharmic act from a non-dharmic act would have to remain steadfast in their ideal of Dharma and sail through the kali.

ASHISH said...

Yr comment
"The same perpetrators of adharma are going to be reborn and would get live in a worser situation to pay off their karma."

No more comprehension reqd to know what befalls us.

Passivity bred for more than 1000 years aped from ascended masters starting Buddha, our nemesis will also be a slow painful grind not instant death.

Murali - Chennai said...

Dear Madam

We call the devas as amaras (immortals). Further, the devas are bestowed with, as per our puranas, other powers like teleport (moving from one place to another without physical travelling) etc. Do these qualities apply only to divine manifestation of devas?

Secondly, is there any reference to the degradation of physical form of devas in any of our texts?

jayasree said...

Dear Mr Murali,

To your first question:-
As I have mentioned previously and explained in detail in my Tamil blog, the concept of Devas can be understood at 3 levels, (1) as divinities or Gods (2) as personification of a concept in nature such as Vayu, Agni etc. In my current topic in the Tamil blog I am explaining Varaha as a divinity and as a geological personification expressed in a physical form.(3) as a people who once lived near the Poles.

This last group is giving rise to your 2nd question. I answered that under the post, 'why ban Gita in Russia', which you have already read.

There is mention in Puranas of Devas as having walked on earth. Even Tamil texts mention that. The Nalangadi Bhootham which was worshiped during Indra festival in Silappadhikaram was gifted by Indra in return for the Cholan king's help in guarding Amaravthy, Deva's capital. This Cholan king was Mandhatha who existed much before a formal Cholan kingdom was established by Cholavarman.

The deterioration of Devas and the mention of Devas as entities are over by Rama's period. Rama's period was in 6th millennium BC. Ravana's son got the name Indrajit because he overpowered Indra. He captured Indra, the king of Devas and brought him to Lanka and humiliated him. This episode confirms a physical entity called Indra who was overpowered by Indrajit. By the time of Ramayana, Indra and Devas have become powerless and lost their glory.

Looking from another angle, it will indeed be shocking and perplexing to even think that some beings called as Devas existed on earth. But according to Hindu thought birth of a Jeeva happens in 4 forms, They are are sthavara (plant), jangama (animal), human and Deva!!

This means that the same jeeva can be born as a plant due to its karma or even as a Deva, which is again possible due to past karma. This category of Deva birth happens at any level - either on earth or in space as a star or as a divine being. Most of the local deities in villages and those worshiped after death are devas at some level of energy forms. The energy forms are pure or a a mix of Satwa, Rajasa and Thamasa. The Pure satwa manifestation happens only as Supreme Brahman.

From the available records, (Sanjaya's utterances in MB) we gather that the Devas (the jeevas as Devas or Gods in divine forms) were born in Uttar Kuru if and when they committed some bad karma in their level of existence. The birth of Bheeshma was also a case of Deva ( a Vasu) who slipped in his nature. From this we can say that Devas as beings who once inhabited North pole before the Ice Age (between 30,000 - 20,000 years BP) were the beings with less backlog of Prarabhdha karma and were born on earth to work out a slip-off in their previous existence as Divinities in ethereal realms.

With the onset of Kali, there is no scope for birth with 'mild' offenses. A Deva can no longer be a Deva if born in today's world. By this I mean that if a jeeva which was once born as a Deva were to be born now, it means that it had accumulated huge bad karma and it can not take up a Deva birth so easily in the many births to come.

jayasree said...

Dear Mr Murali,

There are many terms in Tamil used for Devas such as Amarar, ImayOr (those who don't bat eye lids), ViNNOr (those who star in the other world / viN / sky) and Nithya sooris.

My article on all these written in 2005 in a yahoo group can be read here:-

I think this will an idea on how there are shades of differences between Devas themselves.

Murali - Chennai said...

Dear Madam

Thanks for the clarification.

I could not see your article in that yahoo group, as it is asking for the membership.

In the meanwhile, I would like to know whether you had written any article on the origin of samskrit language. Is it possible that devals from Uttar Kuru brought it to India? We also refer samskrit as Deva Bhasha and the script as Deva Nagari?



jayasree said...

Dear Mr Murali,

I will write it as a blog post with suitable changes to make is understandable to all readers.

On your other questions, I have not written on origin of sanskrit, but I will in the course of my Tamil series. In my opinion both sanskrit and Tamil coexisted when mankind was still confined to regions around the equator and south of equator. They share similar words for same trees and plants which are found in tropics (in the above said regions). Both Tamil and English have a minimum past of 10,000 years.

When we talk about Devas who once lived in the Northern most area of the world, that was a different era. Genetically it is dated to 30,000 to 20,000 years ago from now. There is no way to know what they spoke.

jayasree said...

Dear Mr Murali,

As I am not finding time to redo the article as I told, I am just reproducing the original one I wrote in the yahoo group. Here it is:-

"We often come across in prabhandham, words such as ViNNavar, Vanavar and Amarar used interchangeably. Imayavar and ViNNulAr are other terms used less often. But we can see a qualifying reference or context-orientedness at places where these terms are used, enabling us to deduce what the aazhwar intends to convey. It is like how the same name brahma is used to denote both the all pervading Brahman and the four-faced brahma, with some prefix or contextual reference as in the sloka ‘gurur brahma, gurur Vishnu:…saakshaath para-brahma..’

We can also see the same trend in Prabhandam verses. The aazhwar makes some qualifying remarks regarding whether he refers to devas or nithya sooris, in that particular context. The only verse(s) which I am able to recollect where all these terms are used to denote them to be in Vaikuntham is in “Soozh visumbhu” 10. The vanavar, iamayavar, vinnavar and munivar wait at the threshold of Vaikuntahm to receive the aazhwar. In other places, contextual reference makes them different from nithya sooris.

First of all a clear distinction is made about who are qualified to be amarar or nithya sooris. As per Thiruvoimozhi 10-5-8,9&10, amarar are those who are not tainted by ‘vinaigaL’. The aazhwar refers to nithya sooris, when he says ‘amara-th-thozhuvaarkku amaraa vinaigalE’ In contrast, the Vinnavar are those who are in ViNNulagam and at many places in Prabhandam, Vinnavar are referred to in the context of or in contrast to MaNnavar, the earthly beings. This ViNNulagam is part of the 3 world, Mooulagam. This mooulagam is part of created universe which has a beginning and an end within the total life span of 100 years of the four-faced Brahma deva. Therefore the ViNnavar can not be amarar of amaraa vinaigaL who accompany the Lord at Vaikuntham.


jayasree said...

In 10-2-6, a direct contrast is being made between amarar (nithya sooris) and Vanavar (devas of lokas like Indra loka). By telling ‘amararai-th-thirigindrar’ we find the amarar as Liberated souls like sage Bhrugu whose condition as expressed in 3rd chapter of Taittriyan Upanishad is similar to ‘thiriyum amarar’ or ‘wandering Liberated soul’

In the next line aazhwar talks about the ‘viNNOr’ (paNi seivar ViNNOr), thereby differentiating them from amarar. ViNNOr have some specific duties to perform whereas nithya sooris have no such designated duties, making them liberal literally.

This duty-binding nature is what makes them subject to ups and downs and be endowed with faculties to carry out the duties. That is how they come to be aggrieved when asuras trouble them. In Thiruvoimozhi 7-8-6, it is said ‘vaanavar tham thuyar theera..’ bhagavan came down to earth to humble Bali. Similar instances can be quoted from Prabhandam to show that Vinnavar or vanavar or ViNNulAr do undergo troubles, to wipe out which Bhagavan takes some steps. Thus the ViNNulAr refers to vaanavar coming within the framework of created worlds.

Another source that can be cited is the Acharya Hrudhayam-description of Thiruvoimozhi (4th prakaraN). The 7th patthu in which this verse appears is generally about aazhwar’s ‘aakhrOsham’ as to why Bhagavan has given these indriyas that give trouble to him (jivas) Even ViNNulAr have not escaped the spell of the indriyas is what is made out in the first 10 of 7th patthu.

Connecting this to BG, the individual soul upon attaining Brahman , gets the ‘annadhithvaath, nirgunathvaath’ nature (13-31) (or vice versa or this state happening simulatneous) making it to have no need to do work (na karOthi) . The sequence of jiva’s journey in attaining Brahmanhood from verses 13-21 to 32 in BG is of souls who enjoy Bhagavan. They are not those who suffer anything on any account, nor are they endowed with gunas and senses of prakruthi –born. They have transcended the gunas – they are nir-gunaath. This means that if some entity is described to be suffering from or endowed with prakruthi-born attribute, then that entity can not be said to have attained brahmanhood, which in other words mean not having got a place in Vaikuntham. Therefore it can be conclusively said that ViNNulAr are not nithya sooris. They are VaanOr or viNNAvar of created universe.

I stand to be corrected."


Jayasree saranathan

Vaghula said...

Respected Maam,

I had a query.
a) I understand that during the Mt.Toba explosion a group of people moved to the North pole and lived there. They are Polar Devas.
b) Their continuity got disrupted (at the same place near North pole) at the onset of ice age. This could be around 10,000 to 15,000 years BP
c) During this ice age, a few of them moved out of their places and went to Europe etc.. A few of them came to Uttarkuru and lived there. Uttakuru region started here..
d) Now around 11,5000 years bP Manu had entered through Saraswathi river and herein started the Vedic period.
e) Now at this time when Manu entered India (Saraswathy river from Arabian sea) the Devas must be either near North pole or mingled with Central Europe or came to Uttarkuru.

If the above understanding is correct, then why the Rishis sang about Devas (indra) in the vedic texts. Even in all the Vedas the mention of Indra and Devas are present. What was the reason?. IF they had maintained secrecy etc and only a few kings met them what was the necesssity of Sages to talk about them in Vedic texts.


Vaghula said...

Respected Maam,

I had a query. Devas lived near North pole till the last Ice age, and then scattered to Central EUrope and Uttarkuru.
At the onset of Ice age, Manu moved to India and settled in banks of Saraswathi River. He was the giver of Vedas
Now why the Rishis wrote about Devas (indra) in their Vedas? This implies they had a close connection.
And given that Manu had a disliking to Kurus culture why was it glorified?

Please help me understand this.

The Rishis could have talked about Gods, etc.. but chose to write about Devas and their conflict with Dasyus?. Though it can be arggued that it was symbolic why was such a mechanism necessary at all?

Please help me understand this.

If the Vedas came even before Manu entered Saraswathi, then also this question arises of why the Rishis chose to write about Devas?

Another thing was that such an advanced race of Devas ideally we would have expected them to move to a safter location (remember they moved from North to south pole frequently) and lived in their old glory. Why that didnt happen?


jayasree said...

@ Vaghula,

My replies:
a) I dont talk about Polar Devas, rather I had said that those in the northern hemisphere were known as Devas and those in the southern hemisphere as asuras. However the term Indra appears both in North and south wherever population was thriving. There was a southern Indra also. So it is basically about human population thriving in a place owing to availability sun light.

At the time of Mt Toba eruption, southern hemisphere was receiving direct sun light and population was more in Southern hemisphere. There was not much people in the north at that time. The northern limit of habitation could have been Altai mountains in south of Siberia. Read my other blogs on these and you will know `how there was mix of people.

Toba eruption wiped out most of the population of the world. Equating the Tripura samhara with Toba eruption, I assume that Maya Danavas survived - thereby indicating that knowers of building technology survived. Devas (inhabitants of Northern hemisphere) survived owing to the distance. Daityas could have survived. They could be ancestors of present day Chinese.

b to d)The time period you have mentioned was that of Ice age. The cut-off dates are like this - formed on the basis of genetic migration: 40K years ago a migration had happened from southern hemisphere to North - particularly Europe. Possible route was through NW India (Punjabt, Paksitan - Himalayan passes in that section). A golden image of lion headed man is found in a cave in germany dated at 40K yrs BP. Their origins could have been in Sundaland where Hiranyapura was situated (swarna dweepa).

The next movement to North was by Manu who entered through Saraswathy at the end of Ice age , i.e., sometime after 13,500 Yrs BP. His earlier abode could have been on extended western coast of South India. Before that in Sundaland.

In between 40K and 13.5K yrs a long ice age did occur cutting off the early migrants from others in the southern hemisphere. At the peak of Ice age, those migrants could have moved south to Himalayas and taken abode. Just north of that region in Altai and near lake baikal, was Uttar Kuru. Some of them could have migrated to N. America through Berring strait.

e) By the time Manu entered, Vedism peaked with Manu and his descendants. We dont find mention about Vedic culture associated with people of Europe at that time. What we come across is mention of Uttar Kuru. And it was out of bounds for others. Perhaps archaeological finds in the regions that we think as Uttar Kuru could throw more light on this. Whatever Vedic sign we find in Europe appeared only after Manu was established in Bharata varsha.

Devas sung by Rishis were deities, not people who inhabited northern hemisphere.

My Tamil articles on Indra might answer your questions on Devas:

இந்திரன் என்பவன் இறைவன்! (The secrecy factor you asked is replied in this article)

இந்திரன் என்பவன் இயற்கையில் உள்ள ஒரு சக்தி!

இந்திரனும், இந்திரியங்களும்.

jayasree said...

@ Vaghula

// Devas lived near North pole till the last Ice age, and then scattered to Central EUrope and Uttarkuru.
At the onset of Ice age, Manu moved to India and settled in banks of Saraswathi River. He was the giver of Vedas
Now why the Rishis wrote about Devas (indra) in their Vedas? This implies they had a close connection.
And given that Manu had a disliking to Kurus culture why was it glorified?//

I answered in the previous comment.
Only left out one is on Manu's dislike for Kurus. I think this is not so. Manu did not approve of the free life of women. The apsara life is mating with anyone the woman likes, even getting child through that relationship, but not taking up the responsibility for tending the child. Whenever we come across a person of Bharatavarsha having dated with an apsara, the end will be like she would leave him after giving him a child. Ashwattharama got Pallava through his relationship with an apasara.

Similarly the menfolk also had free sex and gave a child to the manava woman and took responsibility for that child. The biological fathers of Pandavas were like that. Such king of free life with no attachment was noted for inhabitants of Uttar Kuru in MB in the narration of Sanjaya to Dritharashtra. Manu did not approve of this kind of freedom and lack of responsibility.

jayasree said...

@ Vaghula

//The Rishis could have talked about Gods, etc.. but chose to write about Devas and their conflict with Dasyus?. Though it can be arggued that it was symbolic why was such a mechanism necessary at all?//

Read my Tamil articles
தஸ்யுக்கள் யார்?

இந்திரனிடம் உதவி பெற்ற சூத்திரன்!

ரிக் வேதப் போர்களில் உள்ள இயற்கை உண்மைகள்

//If the Vedas came even before Manu entered Saraswathi, then also this question arises of why the Rishis chose to write about Devas?//

The Devas praised by them were divinities and not those who inhabited northern parts of the world.

//Another thing was that such an advanced race of Devas ideally we would have expected them to move to a safter location (remember they moved from North to south pole frequently) and lived in their old glory. Why that didnt happen?//

I can answer the last part - what happened to them. They had become extinct or degenerated by giving up austerities - like how ancient Vedic culture of Bharata varsha has degenerated now. The extinct Denisovans could have been a part of them.

Devas were short in stature, perhaps the 'Java man' - the Valakhilyas were of that era, but they lived near equator - where sun light was abundant. The hymns by Valakhilyas are considered as additions to RV - perhaps due to their different identity coming from previous era / race. Read about them in my article on Udayagiri -

My guess is that the remnant Vedas of previous era to Manu were the Valakhilya hymns.

In my next article on Onam festival I will be writing on Bali and Indra. Let me cover some ideas relevant to this topic in that blog.