tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442555339667770589.post2884786052498068852..comments2024-03-18T22:56:06.696+05:30Comments on Jayasree Saranathan: How Jiva (soul) is born as a human being.Jayasree Saranathan http://www.blogger.com/profile/01048252011566427834noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442555339667770589.post-14418513366872602112022-04-02T22:09:20.943+05:302022-04-02T22:09:20.943+05:30Thank you very much, Madam, for the valuable time ...Thank you very much, Madam, for the valuable time you spent in replying to my queries. I have read it twice. Will need to read it a few more times to absorb it completely. The article has clarified my long pending doubt of how jiva enters the foetus inside the womb... Arunahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10332222181466738324noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442555339667770589.post-42414402678026646992022-04-01T16:57:25.676+05:302022-04-01T16:57:25.676+05:30(5) Reversal means going back through the way it c...(5) Reversal means going back through the way it came. After it entered earth, it can not go back the water in rain and then to cloud. From earth it has to necessarily get into a vegetation and enter the designated 4th oblation or 5th oblation. <br /><br />(6) (a) and (b) Since every birth is pre-planned, in other words, the journey of the Jiva is pre-planned, it will pass through the chain and be born alive or dead or dead mid-way depending on the programmed karmic plan. <br /><br />(c ) Married or not, if the person is the designated parent, the Jiva will reach him and from him to the intended 5th oblation. The carrier man (4th oblation) will have no connection with the carried Jiva. It is part of the process.<br /><br />(7) Wanton abortion is killing the Jiva. Fresh karma incurred by those involved in abortion. Natural abortion / miscarriage makes those connected, to discharge the accrued karma. The Jiva undergoes or discharges karma in both cases. Eg. One who aborts a baby may be born to be aborted. Losing life means losing the chance to be born to work out karma. How long the Jiva has to wait to work out the karma!! <br /><br />The jiva that dies naturally in the womb is because of some karma it carries. In both the cases others (parents) also work out their karma. In my opinion, eating egg is the worst offence because by so eating one plucks out life. Today data says around 50% people have miscarriage atleast once. Those who eat eggs can’t get their eggs protected in their wombs. <br /><br />(8) 99.99% of human beings are getting into rebirth cycle. No Jeevan muktas nowadays. <br />Yes Human birth is rare and precious. <br /><br />Finally, the question, what happens to Jiva-s during Pralaya when worlds are destroyed? <br />They get fixated in Paramatman. Metaphorically as the snake on which Narayana is lying.<br />Jayasree Saranathan https://www.blogger.com/profile/01048252011566427834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442555339667770589.post-46595284665399876222022-04-01T16:57:00.787+05:302022-04-01T16:57:00.787+05:30(3) Nothing touches the Jiva, even the water as it...(3) Nothing touches the Jiva, even the water as it descends along with it. <br />Yes, after a rain you immediately see the growth of vegetation. From vegetation, jiva moves to other two – animals and man.<br /><br />(4) (a) The Jiva enters the plants – sucked by the roots along with water. The Jiva doesn’t become a plant. <br /><br />(b) The whole plant by itself is permeated by a Jiva how our body is permeated by Jiva. Do I say that the Jiva is in my hand, or in my leg? It makes the entire body its home. Similarly, a planet that germinates is life of Jiva permeating that. <br /><br />(c ) A planet will not be a carrier of some Jiva all the time. Any birth is pre-determined. So, the Jiva that descends through water is pre-programmed to enter a planet and get fixated in the fruit of that plant that would reach the intended person. <br /><br />(d) Death of a plant is similar to the death of a person – either by weakening – not getting nourished etc – or by getting pulled out – like death in accidents or murder or by withering with age. <br /><br />(e ) The Jiva leaving the plant can reach any realm. The basic idea is the Jiva that is in human body can be born as a plant or animal. To work out the karma the jiva which was previously in a human body can be born as plant countless times before it takes a human birth.<br /><br />Eg. Imagine the kind of rebirth a person like sandal-wood smuggler Veerappan would get. How many live trees he had felled? How many elephants he killed for ivory? Do you think he can easily get a rebirth in human form? He will be born as plants and trees in dry areas struggling to get water. He will be born as the elephant and be hunted in the same way. Remember the incident of an elephant in Kerala that was fed with a coconut filled with bomb? It exploded in its mouth and how it struggled for days before dying a slow and painful death? What kind of karma it had to get critically wounded in the region that are mercilessly cut off for pulling out ivory? Please join the dots as I don’t want to elaborate more with the context. <br /><br />It is for us to be aware of Karma and at the same time become empathic to sufferings of any Jiva. So, I stop at this. <br />(i) and (ii) Only in immediate rebirth, the Jiva merges with the clouds and descends down. Otherwise, it would reach the realm in consonance with the karma it has done.Jayasree Saranathan https://www.blogger.com/profile/01048252011566427834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442555339667770589.post-48747812458048531742022-04-01T16:56:48.630+05:302022-04-01T16:56:48.630+05:30@ Aruna.
Here are my replies.
(1) Jiva (Atman) i...@ Aruna. <br />Here are my replies.<br /><br />(1) Jiva (Atman) is subtle and nothing touches it, but only envelopes it. It is like a diamond stone, self- glittering. No dirt can spoil it but can cover it by which its sheen is not perceived. In the case of Jiva, it is the diamond stone and also the perceiver of the stone. As long as karma and vasanas are covering it as dirt, the perceiver doesn’t realise the self-glowing nature of itself. It has to gradually remove the dirt to realise itself. <br /><br />This is the basic Thought. <br /><br />In the beginningless beginning when Prakriti (of 3 Guna-s) and Purusha united forming the creation process, the kind of permutations that had taken place caused what each one / jiva carries. Based on the Guna combination, action automatically flows out giving rise to Karma. Karma binds the Jiva in re-birth cycle in which further karma is accumulated. Repeated karmic actions cause Vasanas. Both Karma and Vasanas attach to the Jiva, though the Jiva remains unstained. It is by realisation of one’s entrapment like this, the Jiva gradually becomes aware and sheds vasanas and karma. <br /><br />(2) Unmanifest or unborn Jiva-s reside at realms in consonance with the Guna-karma- awareness level it has. The lokas are these realms. Now we are in the realm of Bhu Loka.<br /><br />(a) no one knows<br /><br />(b) Jiva has consciousness. Mind or manas is acquired as per the 26-element concept of Sanatan Thought. Can be read here https://jayasreesaranathan.blogspot.com/2012/07/god-particle-is-purusha-25th-principle.html <br /><br />(c) (i) and (ii) Jiva can be in any place and in any form of life. It can be born as a grass and then as an animal before taking human birth. After leaving the human body can be in any loka or born as any of these; Read this https://jayasreesaranathan.blogspot.com/2009/03/knowing-your-previous-birth.html<br /><br />Jayasree Saranathan https://www.blogger.com/profile/01048252011566427834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442555339667770589.post-61766673918833454952022-03-31T12:06:44.213+05:302022-03-31T12:06:44.213+05:30Continued from previous...
5) Quoting the article...Continued from previous...<br /><br />5) Quoting the article - "Once it enters the earth, the reversal or return to previous location is difficult. <br /> That means if the Jiva does not want to be born when it is in the previous states, it is possible to go back"<br /><br /> --- cannot understand how it is possible for the Jiva to go back in the previous states; is it similar to 4.e.ii ?<br /> <br />6) Quoting the article -"It has to necessarily pass through the chain till it reaches the 5th agni, the woman’s womb."<br /> a) So if the jiva does not get a human birth when it falls in the earth, it continues to be in this earth's realm only , going<br /> from 1 species to another till it becomes a food to the man (ie. 4th oblation)?<br /> b) If yes, once a plant / micro organism / reptile / bird/ animal / water animal (anything other than human) dies, where does <br /> that jiva go?? back in the earth only ?? If yes, it is invisible to us, right?<br /> i) So how is it decided that it becomes something after it dies? NIYATI or OrDER? i.e a higher power.. that tracks the movement<br /> of each and every jiva?? MINDBOGGLING for someone to do this at such a micro level... <br /><br /> c)It reaches the 4th oblation i.e. man but if he does not marry/could not beget children and he dies; what happens to that jiva <br /> inside that man? Also, is there only 1 jiva or many jivas inside him? if many, will all manifest or whatever is to be manifested <br /> alone will enter him?? <br /><br />7) In the 5th oblation, it reaches the woman's womb; but we hear about abortion - what happens to the jiva of that unborn foetus??<br /><br />8) will the jivas of all human beings (except those pf jivan muktas) reach swarga loka or pitr loka or yama loka after death ? -<br /> even for those who did not have the necessary rituals done according to hindu customs? what about those of other religions?<br /><br />From the above, I can atleast appreciate very very well the saying 'arithu arithu manudaraai pirappadhu arithu'....Arunahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10332222181466738324noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442555339667770589.post-6275137974313070492022-03-31T12:06:14.808+05:302022-03-31T12:06:14.808+05:30Wonderful Madam. Have some queries. Would be nice ...Wonderful Madam. Have some queries. Would be nice if you can clarify. Thank you.<br />-----<br />1) IS there a gross structure for jiva? or it is only subtle?<br /> a)I am fairly aware that subtle body(mind, pranas, indriyas, buddhi) plus causal body(karmas, vasanas) makes up the jiva<br /> but dont know how they are linked? i.e. this set of karmas / vasanas belong to this jiva etc<br /><br />2) Where do all the unmanifested jivas reside?<br /><br /> a) from the article I understand that the mind is formed in 1st level itself - which is 'sun' - perhaps that is why it is called <br /> ' Total mind"?<br /> b) but the subtle body itself has mind which is continuing across births - so could not understand what exactly is formed here?? <br /> IS it activated for further movement?<br /> c) so before this level, where is the jiva? ( i am just taking 1 jiva as an example)<br /> i) I assume that this jiva was in either pitr loka or swarga loka before reaching here? <br /> ii) all the jivas in 7 lokas below bhoomi do not end up here, I think; came to this conclusion after reading this article <br /> many times? Am I right?<br /><br />3) In the 2nd level, rain is formed; since mind is offered into the rain, the jiva is part of the rain and reaches the earth <br /> a) This is what made me curious to find out what is the structure of the jiva? it is invisible to human eyes; So every rain shower<br /> across land / water surface brings down so many jivas (who are ready to manifest in whatever form based on their karma... <br /> Am I right here?<br /><br />4) In the 3rd level, the jiva(s) would have fallen in land or water; <br /> a) IN land, they can become plants (varieties), mirco organisms, animals, reptiles, birds or humans etc based on who eats <br /> the food in which the jiva(s) are present;<br /> In water, they can becomes plants, micro organisms, water based animals / reptiles<br /> <br /> Is the above understanding correct? The 4th oblation (i.e man in case of humans) will hold good for any kind of species ?<br /> And the 5th oblation too? i.e male to female? i.e. garbha gathi as you have mentioned in the q&a below the article<br /><br /> b) In plants which offer fruits, is each fruit a jiva?? and the whole plant itself is one jiva?? for example, coconut tree in its <br /> lifetime gives many coconuts; but the tree lives longer<br /> c) In plants, I assume that each seed will have a jiva trapped; when the seeds does not grow into a plant, the jiva is recycled <br /> back to earth for the next birth? Am I correct?<br /> d) In plants, when they die, the jiva and all the other jivas (in the fruits / seeds yetto be plucked) all leave as mentioned above?<br /> e) Similarly in all animals (land / water), too the same process is followed? But in water, when the water evaporates, <br /> i) is it possible for the jivas to reach the clouds? <br /> ii) If yes for above, can they further move uP? i.e air / space and to where? linked to the query in (2)<br /> <br /><br />Arunahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10332222181466738324noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442555339667770589.post-11502090992345993682018-12-30T18:01:13.293+05:302018-12-30T18:01:13.293+05:30@Mr Govindan,
I differ from you. Brahmins engage...@Mr Govindan, <br /><br />I differ from you. Brahmins engaged in Brahmanic deties could not have consumed meat. I am yet to write on Vatapi - Agastya episode but I can establish that Agastya didnt consume meat. The only kind of violence that Brahmins did was in yajna but then even that was not ordained by Dharma devata. Refer this episode in Mahabharata http://ancientvoice.wikidot.com/src-mbh-12:section-271 Jayasree Saranathan https://www.blogger.com/profile/01048252011566427834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442555339667770589.post-5447809938235931122018-12-28T19:54:03.545+05:302018-12-28T19:54:03.545+05:30Madam,
In regard to non-vegetarian food, during th...Madam,<br />In regard to non-vegetarian food, during the period of Mahabharata, brahmins consumed meat - there are exhaustive references. And if kshatriyas were privy to panchagni vidya, they would have avoided meat - particularly Dharma Raja. But there is no such specific reference. Upanishads, particularly major upanishads precede Mahabharata. <br /><br />In my opinion, only after intervention of Buddha, brahmins seem to have adopted vegetarianism. V Govindanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08711373807817392310noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442555339667770589.post-56749478069757751252016-08-21T18:59:32.418+05:302016-08-21T18:59:32.418+05:30Came across this verse in Mahabharata while readin...Came across this verse in Mahabharata while reading for my next article on Time. It reiterates the concept of 3 levels of birth as superior, inferior and intermediate, better known as swarga, naraka and earth. And also three kinds of deeds, good, evil and mixed. These three actions give their results in the respective realms mentioned in the previous line viz., swarga, naraka and earth.These are also signified as Dhoomadhi gathi, Yamya gathi and garbha gathi.<br /><br />From Mahabharata 13- 158<br /><br />"This world or human life represents his (Almighty - Krishna) car. He it is that yokes that car for setting it in motion. That car has three wheels viz, the three attributes of Sattwa, Rajas, and Tamas. It has three kinds of motion for it goes upwards or downwards or transversely, implying superior, inferior, and intermediate birth as brought about by acts. It has four horses yoked to it viz, Time, Predestiny, the will of the deities, and one's own will. It has three naves white, black, and mixed, implying good acts, evil acts and acts that are of a mixed character. "Jayasree Saranathan https://www.blogger.com/profile/01048252011566427834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442555339667770589.post-48585505282660370302016-07-28T10:15:52.366+05:302016-07-28T10:15:52.366+05:30Thank you Madam Ji. I will look up at those linksThank you Madam Ji. I will look up at those linksDr Rama Krishnan https://www.blogger.com/profile/04495199378441276851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442555339667770589.post-15084554239975214602016-07-27T13:26:22.452+05:302016-07-27T13:26:22.452+05:30@ Mr rk,
The Abrahamic faiths are mutilated versi...@ Mr rk,<br /><br />The Abrahamic faiths are mutilated versions of the already existing ideas in those regions which were originally influenced by Veda dharma. They have taken up a concocted version of Veda dharma with minimal understanding of why and how the original ideas were in existence before.Symbols, calendar, rituals, day- night reversals, sighting moon, festivals, astronomy based important dates and many more are vaguely adopted by the abrahamic religions from Veda dharma. Please read for more details my old article captioned 'Roots of Mleccha astrology and Mlecchas' to know about what were copied by abrahamic / mleccha religions from Veda dharma - https://www.scribd.com/document/22717150/Roots-of-Mlechcha-Astrology<br /><br />How the stars of Jews and Christians and the idea of Solomon's key were taken from Veda dharma was earlier written by me in this blog - http://jayasreesaranathan.blogspot.in/2012/10/the-stars-of-jews-and-christians.html<br /><br />Likewise, the idea of hell / naraka was taken from Veda dharma by them. <br /><br />Coming to this particular topic, the chapter X captioned " The various paths followed death" in Chandogya upanishad quoted in the article above deals with 3 different destinations after death for 3 different kinds of people. In this context please recall the 4 gathis I wrote in the comment section of part 2 of Astika Darshanas:- Archiradhi gathi, Dhoomadhi gathi, Yamya gathi and Garbha gathi.<br /><br />The solar path is Archirardhi marga / gathi that leads one to no-return state. The Lunar path of Dhoomadhi path that is pitru loka from where beings are born on this earth. <br /><br />The 3rd place is mentioned in the upanishad in the above quoted chapter. That is Yamya gathi - under the spell of Yama. In that state, the Jiva passes through only 3 agnis and not 5 agnis. From the 3rd agni of plants / earth, the Jiva takes birth as beings which just live to die. These are births of plant, animals and micro organisms. What is described in Naraka are being experienced by most of the beings in these forms. <br /><br />That this is the Yamya gathi - or the place of hell or Yama is known from Brahma sutras on the discussion of the same topic or Solar and lunar and third route as in Chandogya upanishad. <br /><br />Check this website for Brahma sutras http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/sbe48/index.htm<br />In that check 3rd adhyaya, fisrt pada verses 12 to 21.<br /><br />For easy reading let me give the link for 12th verse from which you can go the succeeding verses. <br />http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/sbe48/sbe48329.htm<br /><br />This is Ramanuja Bhashya.<br /><br />Let me give you Shankara Bhashya to the same verses too. <br />For that read <br /><br />http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/sbe38/sbe38088.htm<br /><br />The 4th gathi is Garbha gathi. It is human birth which happens through Panchagni. In that Man becomes the 5th oblation (and 4th agni). This 5th oblation (Man) is absent in the beings that are born in the 3rd world which is under the control of Yama. That is the import of these passages. <br /><br />The other import is that Naraka is not a different physical domain. It is within the earth and refers to the experiences that beings which are not born through man and woman undergo.<br />Brahma sutras mention the exception of 5th oblation as in the case of Draupadi. In today's conditions test tube babies come under this exception. <br /><br />It is not right to say that human beings suffer naraka and swarga in their existence as we normally tend to explain. As per Veda dharma, human births are categorized as Garbha gathi in which human beings experience pleasure and pain together and not one to the exclusion of the other.<br /><br /><br />Jayasree Saranathan https://www.blogger.com/profile/01048252011566427834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442555339667770589.post-70136100466526313612016-07-27T08:20:54.432+05:302016-07-27T08:20:54.432+05:30Thank you Madam Ji for a great scholarly article, ...Thank you Madam Ji for a great scholarly article, as usual. I am unable to comment scholarly on Narakas as I am not as well versed in Shastras as many of you do. My basic opinion is Naraga and Swarga negates Karmic laws of Universe. If Narga is the place for experiencing pabha Karmas, then rebirth becomes meaningless. Might as well have Naraga and Swarga and do away with rebirths. A very Abrhamic concept, though they are not eternal here. The argument that certain deeds require and deserve Naraga and Swarga when there are Karmic laws of cause and effect in our Dharma does not SEEM logical. Plus you need some Rupa to experience these effects, as i have mentioned in my earlier comments. How one gets this Rupa? ( in whatever shpae or form) Obviously,I need to study more on Narga and Swarga. I admit my limitations.<br />""Tat Tvam Asi is the grand chant of the Chhandogya, the Mahavakya that each of us comes from, and are that Self, the Atman, nothing else""<br />Tat Tvam Asi , I believe, means you are That", the Atman,the, Realized Self,who is none other than the Brahman.<br />The Mahavakya of "Aham Brahamsmi" cannot be sidelined. Essentially everything is Brahman only. Realized Self dissolves in Brahman. Satyam Gaynam, Anatham, Brahmam. No boundaries. If Brahman is infinite, then it cannot have parts. If anybody is interested, I can post Sadanada Achayara ji's talk on Advaita of Shankara and Ramanuja's Vishistadvaita.<br />Thank you Ji once again.<br /><br />Dr Rama Krishnan https://www.blogger.com/profile/04495199378441276851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442555339667770589.post-62834200472903781362016-07-25T14:12:49.777+05:302016-07-25T14:12:49.777+05:30Not Udgita, it is Vaishvanara Atman. 5 sages appro...Not Udgita, it is Vaishvanara Atman. 5 sages approach Uddhalaka Aruni and with him they approach Kekaya Ashvapathi for upadesa on Vaisvanara. Panchagni Vidya was given by Panchala king, Pravahana Jaivali. <br /><br />I didn't read any Bhashya for this upanishad. I used to read the text of the upanishad and try to understand the meaning. As the discussion on this topic is in Brahma sutras I read the relevant parts of Ramanuja Bhashya for Brahma sutras along with Panchagni Vidya given in Chandogya upanishad. When I read these parts after having the discussion on Naraka in part 2 of the Asthika darshana, I could see a definite plan in bringing the sutras on 7 narakas after Panchagni vidya ideas in the Brahma sutras. Naraka in that context is more meaningful and probable. I am waiting for the response of Mr rk on this. <br /><br />I don't know whether any Bhashyakaras have written on why the knowledge of Panchagni Vidya and vaishvanara were with Kshatriyas initially. For Panchagni Vidya I have given my reasoning in the article itself. I have even heard that those take the food in Shraddha ceremony (Brahmanaartham) must know Panchagni Vidya to 'rid' themselves of the pitru who entered their body to eat the food. I don't think the people of today know of the austerity wrt Panchagni vidya. <br /><br />About Chandogya Upanishad, it is so peaceful to read this upanishad. It has answers for many questions that are commonplace ones nowadays. I for one have used many ideas of this Upanishad to answer many issues in my blogs. Ushasti eating horsegram, Narada calling himself Shudra, mention of "rashi" for astrology in Narada's talks, Vaishvanara, reference to Gandhara, Panchagni Vidya, discussion between Svetaketu and Aruni, 16 kalas of the atman, the examples of banyan seed and salted water for exposition of Brahman, Brahmin not only by birth but also by way of life, Indra & Virochana getting upadesa, water as the clothing for atman etc have been used by me in different articles but relevant contexts. But this time when I read it to write the above article, I got a new insight on what Mr Hariharan had said in the comments on Astika darshana on tat-tvam-asi - that it is not a Maha Vakya as made out by Advaitins!Jayasree Saranathan https://www.blogger.com/profile/01048252011566427834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442555339667770589.post-5274376773983045512016-07-25T11:54:14.568+05:302016-07-25T11:54:14.568+05:30Great understanding and exposition madam. Also i f...Great understanding and exposition madam. Also i find your article close to the commentary of Shankara on the Chandogya upanishad. <br /><br />On the point of kshatriya's being teachers to brahmins, in the same upanishad there is a discussion of the Udgita, which is the singing of saman singing in Shrauta sacrifices. I forgot the name of the 2 brahmin's who were discussing the Udgita. They hit a dead end on some point and go to the king Pravahana Jaivali or kekaya ashvapati(Not sure if correct). He offers to clear the doubt, but gives the honor of starting the debate to one of the brahmanas. Though as per the shastra teaching of the Veda is the brahmana's domain alone, esoteric knowledge was sought from all varnas. Remember the story of Dharma Vyada the butcher in the Mahabharata.R.Ramanathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01842378468616200619noreply@blogger.com