tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442555339667770589.post4858710444659439874..comments2024-03-18T22:56:06.696+05:30Comments on Jayasree Saranathan: Was Tamil script derived from Brahmi? – Some thoughts on Dr Nagaswamy’s book “Mirror of Tamil and Sanskrit”.Jayasree Saranathan http://www.blogger.com/profile/01048252011566427834noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442555339667770589.post-86885356794536751822017-08-28T21:49:50.336+05:302017-08-28T21:49:50.336+05:30Madam,
Thanks for the detailed reply. I will rea...Madam,<br /><br />Thanks for the detailed reply. I will read Tholkaappiyam and all your other articles including the link that you have shared on pali. Hope you can share the paper excerpts, once it is published. Looking forward to your series. Best wishes for your paper!<br /><br />Regards<br />HariHarihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07676446223855601305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442555339667770589.post-10704324832971236502017-08-28T15:44:22.256+05:302017-08-28T15:44:22.256+05:30@ Mr Hari
On your question >>some people cl...@ Mr Hari<br /><br />On your question >>some people claim that there is no Tamil before Sanskrit came into existence and some claim it the other way. May I know your thoughts?<<<<br /><br />At the current level of my understanding I am of the opinion that Tamil and Sanskrit evolved from a Proto-language which contained both. Pali language looks like a better candidate to be that proto-language. I will be divulging on this in my series on 'Through the window of Tamil'. So far in one article I have written about this. It is a long article, you have to have patience to read it. The link is here:<br /><br />https://jayasreesaranathan.blogspot.in/2017/06/6-pazhi-pali-magadha-shaka-dweepa.html<br /><br />I am writing more on this in my soon-to-be-submitted paper to SI3 conference of Infinity Foundation. So I am not writing it right here. I was slow in blogging for 3 months to due preparation of this paper. I will start active blogging from 1st week of Sep when I will be concentrating on 'Through Tamil...' series where I intend to write on this in relevant places. <br /><br />If you can read Tamil and old Tamil as well, I suggest you read the Tol Kappiyam verses on Vadasol (sanskrit). Sol Adhikaram 401 and 402. Read commentaries by old commentators like Naccinarkkiniyar or Ilampuranar. You will then know the connection between Tamil and sanskrit. <br /><br />I dont agree with Dr Nagaswamy's view on Brahmi. It is a script not language. But Indian Archaeologists derive Tamil script from Brahmi. It is false given that the huge, voluminous sangam texts could not have been written in the short period of a few centuries after Brahmi came to Tamil lands (along with Jains and Vels). Also Tamil Brahmi scripts had existed side by side with Tamil scripts till 9th century CE. In my paper I am divulging on this subject and proving that Brahmi was the script developed by Jain ascetics who lived in Indus region and was used by potters and stone workers and it is not a precursor for Tamil script.Jayasree Saranathan https://www.blogger.com/profile/01048252011566427834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442555339667770589.post-36678535400935439292017-08-28T01:48:45.858+05:302017-08-28T01:48:45.858+05:30Madam,
Thanks for sharing lot many unknown detail...Madam,<br /><br />Thanks for sharing lot many unknown details. This article has opened up many other topics for me to read.<br /><br />I just got a question, some people claim that there is no Tamil before Sanskrit came into existence and some claim it the other way. May I know your thoughts?<br /><br />Just to mention, I just read this article and yet to read your other articles. I came to this blog after watching, Dr. Nagaswamy's interview with Mr. Rajiv Malhotra, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1RnPcyk_e0.<br /><br />Thanks<br />HariHarihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07676446223855601305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442555339667770589.post-72217725619151742492014-01-05T01:18:05.788+05:302014-01-05T01:18:05.788+05:30@ Arun Kumar.
Your comment does not merit a repl...@ Arun Kumar.<br /><br /> Your comment does not merit a reply.Jayasree Saranathan https://www.blogger.com/profile/01048252011566427834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442555339667770589.post-51083743174020560552014-01-05T00:51:21.606+05:302014-01-05T00:51:21.606+05:30In ancient times the Hindu practices were entirely...In ancient times the Hindu practices were entirely different from what we follow now. The word Brahmin came into existence with the introduction of four varnas. Prior to that there were only 3, the religious/priestly, warriors and the remaining population. In a later stage all the educated were called as Brahmans and not based on the birth to a Brahman father, example Valmiki. Later the puranas and Upanishads were written in way it benefit the Brahmin community(the educated) and their offspring be called as Brahmin by birth. But it's foolish to say that a language was invented by Brahmins because when scripting was not invented there was no proper education system and hence no Brahmans. Your theory is flawed.Aarvakkolaaruhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11082285790616098595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442555339667770589.post-66032714934490806912012-10-08T13:56:22.509+05:302012-10-08T13:56:22.509+05:30Thanks Tejaswini, at last you have come to my poin...Thanks Tejaswini, at last you have come to my point of view. Reading your comment looked like re-reading what I had written in many articles mostly in my Tamil blog and to some extent in this English blog. Jayasree Saranathan https://www.blogger.com/profile/01048252011566427834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442555339667770589.post-88731924006533683672012-10-07T22:54:40.319+05:302012-10-07T22:54:40.319+05:30The first individual effort on the study of India ...The first individual effort on the study of India was undertaken by William Jones and first study of South India was undertaken by Ellis. But their analyses were suppressed and Maxmuler's and followed by Dr.Caldwell's theories were given prominence. This is what I say is absurdity. If one closely follow Indian history it is portrayed as events of regularity. For fixing continuity historians jump from one mythology to another mythology. For fixing vedic period from 2300BC to 800BC they will dump Jain/Buddhistic genealogy. From 800BC to 600BC they will jump to Iranian sources and say Kuru is Cyrus Turvasu is Darius. From 600BC to 200BC they will jump to Puranas and so on. Indian history is based not on logic and corroborative evidence but more on principle of continuity. If Cyrus and Darius represent Vedic names then there can only be two explanations: either they should belong to 1700BC OR the date of Vedic hymns referring Turvasu and Kuru should belong to 700BC. The irony is that after Turvasu there was no king so named and it is puzzling to note that Acchemenian kings waited for one thousand years to name after Vedic kings. In order to substantiate the concept of Janapadas which they took from Jain/Buddhistic sources they will be misinterpreting Vedic hymns. Further while dealing with North Indian history we never hear folklore stories of commonfolk. Thus as on today North Indian history of yore represented only those classes who had trade contact and not the commonfolk as depicted in Tamil literature. The variation between Tamil and North India has to be accepted as a reality. For example the story of Kanthaman the Chola king anointing his illegitimate son fearing Parasurama's wrath his bringing of Cauvery with the help of sage Agasthya Ravana's defeat in the hands of Sage Agasthya Puhar known as Champapathi honouring Sampathi and Jatayu's home as Pulirukkuvelur Lord Rama conducting counselling at Kodiakarai Sita throwing Jewels and monkeys wearing them Lord Parasurama giving blood oblation at Sellur are not recorded in the epics. I still reiterate just as North Indians today are disinterested in knowing about Tamilnadu unlike Tamilians even during the earlier times North did not acquaint itself with Tamilnadu and references are only with regard to information gathered during trade. Hence tracing history of Tamilnadu as Dravidians through North Indian sources without corroborative evidence in Tamil but bending Tamil to suit North Indian sources like coining of terms- ProtoDravidianism is not pure research but simplification of history.Tejaswininimburiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06098146870657720928noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442555339667770589.post-16248696863134949682012-09-07T14:27:29.434+05:302012-09-07T14:27:29.434+05:30@ Tejaswini,
Sorry to say that most of what is w...@ Tejaswini, <br /><br />Sorry to say that most of what is written in your comment is absurd and can be refuted. The refutation will run into several articles and that is why I think it is better to ask you read my Tamil series on Thamizhan Dravidana which is still continuing. The link is <br /><br />http://thamizhan-thiravidana.blogspot.in/<br /><br />If you cant read Tamil read the article given in the link below for a brief idea and search my blog for other articles. <br /><br />http://jayasreesaranathan.blogspot.in/2012/02/who-is-dravida-mr-karunanidhi.html<br /><br />Some info that I have not yet written in English blog but in Tamil blog is that Tamil was the spoken language of all Bharatheeyas in the past. There is a Tamil proverb in Valmiki Ramayana. Apabhramsa from which Hindi and most North Indian languages came up had many Tamil words showing that it was "kodum Thamizh" mentioned by Tholkaappiyam commentators.<br /><br />Another info is on Egypt. The Karnak temple and Egyptian sun culture was introduced by Karna's son Vrushaketu who left Bharat and settled in Egypt after Mahabharata war. More can be read in my Tamil blog.Jayasree Saranathan https://www.blogger.com/profile/01048252011566427834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442555339667770589.post-85160704155332687792012-09-06T23:03:17.125+05:302012-09-06T23:03:17.125+05:30I have great regard for Dr. Nagaswamy for his holi...I have great regard for Dr. Nagaswamy for his holistic approach to history. I want to raise certain issues through this forum. Too much reliance on Alexander's invasion, the commencing of Kaliyuga taking Aihole inscription at 3102BC puranic accounts Alberuni's SHAHNAMA. It is a puzzling fact that the word Tamil is not at all referred in any Sanskrit Literature. While Valmiki Ramayana does not refer Dravida Mahabharata distinctly refers Dravida and Three Tamil kings. While Manu refers Dravidas as degraded kings he does not mention Tamil Kings. None of the great poets like Kalidasa and Alberuni refers Cholas though mention is made about Pandiyas and Keralas. It is even more puzzling that the terms referred in Asokanedicts as Koda, Pada and Kethala which is taken as Chola Pandya and Kerala. I doubt whether North Indians like contemporary times is not aware of Tamil itself. While Chola inscriptions minutely refers even to Gahadwalas how is that there is no mention about Cholas even by Kalhana the successor of Bilhana. Thus there is distinctions between Tamil sources even from Sangam period which refers to north India like hidden wealth of Nandas, Sonabhadra etc., Thus reliability of Sanskrit sources to history of Tamilnadu is neither here nor there. However there is plenty of marital tie between Srilanka with north India and even with Middle East. The date of relating Lord Krishna to 3102BC may not be correct in the absence of any reference to India in Egypt being the reign of Menus of Third Dynasty and Lord Krishna's period is much much older may be around 10000BC. FURTHER why are the historians shy away from taking Buddhist or Jain literature as the starting point instead of taking Vedas as compiled by Sayana as starting point. For a while let us forget Vedas. There will not be much difference since the epics and Hindu Gods are available but with variation. Through Jain or Buddhism myths how do you account for Aryo-Dravida or Aryo Dasa war? While there are innumerable minute references to Yagyas why was it completely absent in Sanskrit literature prior to Bhasa. The concept of proto Dravidians is mere a humbug since upto the borders of South Maharashtra there are innumerable Tamil terms and there is puzzling similarities between the terms used as ayirathu nooruvar munnoorruvar and rattabadi ezharaiilakkam banavasi panneeraiyram etc., Incidentally all the gruhyasutras like Bodhayana, Apasthamba, Katyayana etc., belong to Godavari basin. These facts refer to close connection between Tamil and Deccan. Lastly Tamil literature always hold Himalayas as the foremost place and there is no even a bit of reference to Sindhu. Tejaswini VemburiaTejaswininimburiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06098146870657720928noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442555339667770589.post-65583141832332355482012-08-05T22:22:45.507+05:302012-08-05T22:22:45.507+05:30absolute non sense, brahmanical hypocrisy. The two...absolute non sense, brahmanical hypocrisy. The two great lineages "sun dynasty - chozha; moon dynasty - pandya" and their cultural spread in many civilizations cant be paralleled by any particularly the so called vedic kingsநான் தமிழன்https://www.blogger.com/profile/02178133091521090925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442555339667770589.post-84849171874921339142012-07-24T10:17:10.482+05:302012-07-24T10:17:10.482+05:30where can i buy this book, google is not helping m...where can i buy this book, google is not helping me..Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442555339667770589.post-33046200681791798882012-07-07T08:29:08.720+05:302012-07-07T08:29:08.720+05:30The Mayan scale and method of construction is iden...The Mayan scale and method of construction is identical in all these structures, whose origin can be traced to Indus constructions. The originator of this style of construction was indeed Maya danava who was rescued from forest fire at Gandava vana by Krishna and Arjuna. In return for that, Maya constructed Maya sabha and a palace for the Pandavas at Gandavaprastha in which he constructed the water pool inside the palace. Those trained under him spread his concepts initially at Indus regions which sprang up after the Mahabharata war ended. The Great bath at Mohanjadaro has all the features of Maya's water tank built at Panadava's palace.<br /><br /> In fact the Mahabharata war had a hidden agenda to control trade routes to the west (silk route) and southern route (dakshina pada). Gujarat was a nodal point for these two routes. By defeating Kauravas, the Pandavas took control over Gandhara through which they wrested control over the main road links to Middle east and central Europe. The trade interests of the Pandyan and Cheran kings were also served by bringing the Dakshina pada under their control. If not for this trade / economic reason, the Pandyan king Sarangadwaja would not have fought for the Pandavas. He had a personal grouse against Krishna who killed his father in a battle. But he was cajoled to set aside the grouse and fight alongside Krishna. You will find these information in Mahabharata. What could have softened this king unless there was a greater good - on economic lines for fighting this war and along with Krishna and Pandavas?<br /><br />There was a heightened economic activity post Mahabharata war - for which Indus region became the nodal point. The vast construction activities gave room for specialization of artisan groups. 18 such groups migrated to Tamil lands along the eastern part of the western ghats upto Palani when the Indus regions experienced downfall due to natural calamities, Nacchinaarkkiniyar speaks of a flood in Dwaraka and a shift of 18 groups of artisans including Aruvalars to Tamil lands along with others that included Royal class. The Arulavars had settled in Kancheepuram. This shift happened around 1500 BC when Byt Dwaraka was flooded. The presence of stone works in Sriperumpudur as early as 1500 BC and the subsequent historical info on Karikala and Pallavas show that they were experts in stone works, They had this expertise even before they came to Kancheepuram. With them a fresh chapter in stone works was started in Tamilnadu. It is not surprising that they gave some of the finest structures for temples as they were already sufficiently trained in building works. <br /><br />//I am concerned about possible mis-use of a by-product of this research: namely, that Tamil script/language/civilization developed independently, etc//<br /><br />They can't do that as this sequence shows that these artisans were immigrants!! The so called backward classes identified by Maraimalai adigal were artisans who migrated from Dwaraka. The regions where they initially settled are caste sensitive due to the historical struggle of non-acceptance by the locals. Their previous ancestry goes to Ganges regions from where they accompanied Krishna to Dwaraka. Dwaraka was built with their help!!<br /><br />- JayasreeJayasree Saranathan https://www.blogger.com/profile/01048252011566427834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442555339667770589.post-76479048531812560512012-07-07T08:28:56.619+05:302012-07-07T08:28:56.619+05:30Yes, stone engravings are seen only from 300 BC on...Yes, stone engravings are seen only from 300 BC onwards. The earliest ones are Brahmi engravings found in Jain dwellings. These places are found along side the Highways or isolated hillocks or outside the cities like Madurai which the Jain monks preferred for staying. The same description for Jain dwellings is found in Silappadhikaram also. The earlist stone works were stone beds carved for the Jain monks inside the caves. The stone work got a fillip in Pallava period from 3rd AD onwards when they started building temples on stone. Until then temples were built on <br />'sudumanal' bricks - a reference to this is there in Silappadhikaram. By 9th - 10th century stone made temples had come to stay in full swing.It is around this time we come across inscriptions on kings giving many civil rights to Kammalas (pancha kammalas) who were engaged in a variety of construction activities of which stone work is one. Why should they be given such rights unless they were immigrants or people who have been called to work? But this has been twisted by Dravidian chauvinists as suppression or struggle of deprived classes against Brahmin domination.<br /><br />Coming to the issue under discussion, these artisans were there in the Indus region and contributed to its growth as early as 5000 years ago. The similarity in construction model (eg - pyramid shaped gopurams) is seen throughout the world - constructed in the first millennium of the current era. This is regarded as Mayan style by western researchers. Please refer to this site on 'Voyage of pyramid builders'. It shows a world map where similar Mayan architecture is seen. The architecture and the artisans have spread throughout the world. http://frontiers-of-anthropology.blogspot.in/2012/01/voyages-of-pyramid-builders.html<br /><br />(cont'd)Jayasree Saranathan https://www.blogger.com/profile/01048252011566427834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442555339667770589.post-5203034371564144992012-07-07T08:27:11.049+05:302012-07-07T08:27:11.049+05:30From: mkrishnaswamy
Date: Sat, Jul 7, 2012 at 7:13...From: mkrishnaswamy<br />Date: Sat, Jul 7, 2012 at 7:13 AM<br />Subject: Re: Non-random-Thoughts:Was Tamil script derived from Brahmi? – Some thoughts on Dr Nagaswamy’s book “Mirror of Tamil and Sanskrit”.<br />To: jayasree <br /><br /><br />I am surprised that the art of stone-cutting became known to the Tamils only 2000 years ago, not earlier and that initially it was primarily a construction activity:<br /><br />//If Grantha was a developed / derived script, Brahmi was just a script which was used to write Tamil. <br />Since it was found engraved in stone for the first time, it is not right to say that it was the earliest script. <br />Stone cutting and engraving on stones came into existence only 2000 years ago. Stone cutting is a part of construction activity. //<br /><br /><br />It is a remarkable achievement that within the next 600-800 years, massive Gopurams and other structures in stone requiring fine sculpting & structural engineering skills/knowledge came into existence in the South.<br /><br />Awaiting your article in the Hindu expounding your contrary view on the Brahmi/Tamil connection.<br />I am concerned about possible mis-use of a by-product of this research: namely, that Tamil script/language/civilization developed independently, etc.<br /><br />MKKJayasree Saranathan https://www.blogger.com/profile/01048252011566427834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442555339667770589.post-56934101361957672942012-07-07T08:26:10.647+05:302012-07-07T08:26:10.647+05:30Thank you. I also sent the link to him and Dr Irav...Thank you. I also sent the link to him and Dr Iravadam as well.Jayasree Saranathan https://www.blogger.com/profile/01048252011566427834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442555339667770589.post-65242128957657148662012-07-07T08:25:47.259+05:302012-07-07T08:25:47.259+05:30From: BR Haran
Date: Fri, Jul 6, 2012 at 10:38 PM...From: BR Haran <br />Date: Fri, Jul 6, 2012 at 10:38 PM<br />Subject: Re: Non-random-Thoughts:Was Tamil script derived from Brahmi? – Some thoughts on Dr Nagaswamy’s book “Mirror of Tamil and Sanskrit”.<br />To: jayasree <br /><br /><br />Interesting Jayasreeji. I am sending this to Dr.Nagaswamy. Let us see what he says.Jayasree Saranathan https://www.blogger.com/profile/01048252011566427834noreply@blogger.com