tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442555339667770589.post6642912659801420643..comments2024-03-18T22:56:06.696+05:30Comments on Jayasree Saranathan: Some insights into Karma, Guna and taking care of parents.Jayasree Saranathan http://www.blogger.com/profile/01048252011566427834noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442555339667770589.post-62262380030576775392013-01-30T14:18:57.462+05:302013-01-30T14:18:57.462+05:30Sir/Madam,
You have very clearly misunderstood...Sir/Madam,<br /><br /> You have very clearly misunderstood what I meant when I wrote "they can't be satisfied let alone praise/bless". <br /><br />It is not in expectation or acknowledgement of my deeds that I help them. It is my duty to do and so I do. The problem is with the reaction to it. Its like "do help them, you are doomed (by them) and don't help them, you are doomed (by fate/god/scriptures)". <br /><br />When faced with such a reaction over and over again, and to top it, a constant comparison to actions (rather deceptions) of an unworthy sibling, goes only to show that there is no point in doing anything for them.<br /><br />You can always link it to my similar actions in previous life(s). <br />1. The question about that: prior to that life(s), in some other life I must have faced similar situation and so I gave it back in that life. Now this can go on and on.<br />2. Now clearly I must have learnt this lesson prior to this birth. If not, I wouldn't write (or even feel) <br />"So the best you want for them is that they should not suffer in this birth or any other birth". <br /><br />You can argue that seeds have been sown in the past and should now be reaped. Now that the knowledge that, its a weed and not a useful plant (as was thought at the time of sowing), has risen, how long would/should it take to weed it out. <br />You may claim again that the knowledge is not complete. If it was complete you would suffer it out silently and unquestioned. The problem with that is : <br />if that knowledge was complete, then what would you care whether you are treated justly or unjustly. First of all, there is no person that experiences and there is nothing to experience at all. Only that could be complete knowledge. <br />If that is what is to be gained, then there is no question of parents, or helping / not helping parents, seeking their blessings or getting cursed or whatever.<br /><br />I do not make this up for the sake of arguing. There needs to be a change. <br /><br />There must certainly be a day when they see through their prejudice. Until then no matter what I do for them, it ends up as water for the weed. <br /><br />Your point about abusive parents being recent phenomenon and so not mentioned in scriptures, sounds shallow. Scriptures were not only recording the actions of the (then presnt) past. To stand the test of time, they were written keeping in mind, the generations to come thereafter, eons and eons later.Solestaynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442555339667770589.post-17751622966038845742013-01-30T09:26:13.007+05:302013-01-30T09:26:13.007+05:30நம் பெற்றோர், பாட்டன்கள், அவர்தம் பெற்றோர் என்று க...நம் பெற்றோர், பாட்டன்கள், அவர்தம் பெற்றோர் என்று குறைந்தது மூன்று தலைமுறை வரை மரபணுவை கருவில் கடன் வாங்குகிறோம். அதன் அடிப்படையில் இயற்கையிலிருந்து நமக்குத் தேவையானதை எடுத்துக்கொள்கிறோம். அதைத் திருப்பித் தரவில்லை என்றால், நம்மிடம் உள்ள இருப்பு குறைந்து விடும். குறைந்த இருப்பிலிருந்து நம் பிள்ளைகளும் அவர்கள் பிள்ளைகளும் எந்த அளவு எடுத்துக் கொள்ள முடியும்? சொத்து இருந்தால்தானே அடுத்த தலைமுறைக்குக் கொடுக்க முடியும்? கடன் வைத்திருந்தால் கடன் கொடுத்தவன் (இயற்கை) நம் பிள்ளைகளை விடுவானா? அல்லது அவர்கள் கடன் கேட்டால் கொடுப்பானா? இல்லையே! இயற்கை நமக்குத் தருவது நோயற்ற வாழ்வு. நாம் இயற்கைக்குக் கடன் பட்டால், நம் பிள்ளைகளுக்குக் தேவையான கடன் (நோயற்ற வாழ்வு) இயற்கையிலிருந்து கிடைக்காமல் போகும்.<br /><br />மேலே கூறப்பட்ட சிசேரியன் குழந்தை உதாரணத்தைப் பாருங்கள். வயிற்றைத் திறந்தும், அது ஜீவிதத்தில் இருக்கிறது. அந்த ஜீவிதம் வளர இடம் தந்தது தாய் வயிறு. ஜீவிதம் பெற்றது அவள் கொப்பூழ் கொடி மூலமாக; அது அவள் இயற்கையிலிருந்து பெற்ற உணவு. இன்றைக்குப் பரிசோதனைக் குழாயில் கருவை உண்டாக்கினாலும், கரு வளர வேண்டியது தாயின் கர்ப்பத்தில். அதற்கு மாற்று என்றுமே வர இயலாது.<br /><br />பெற்றோர் மூலமாக நாம் பஞ்ச பூதங்களுக்கும் பட்ட கடனை, தீவிர சிந்தனையுடன் (ஸ்ரத்தையுடன்) பிண்டம் வைத்து நீர் மூலமாகத் திருப்பித் தருகிறோம்.<br />பிரபஞ்சங்களை கர்ப்பத்தில் வைத்துள்ள இறைவனை இதே எண்ணத்தில் பாருங்கள். அவனுக்கும் நாம் கடன் படவில்லையா? நம்மை உருவாக்கி, பிறப்பித்து, கர்ம வினையை முடிக்க உதவி, இந்தக் கர்மச் சக்கரத்திலிருந்து விடுபட உதவுகிறானே, அவனுக்கு என்ன திருப்பிச் செய்கிறோம்?<br /><br />அவன் எதிர்பார்க்க மாட்டான்; எதிர்பார்க்கக் கூடாது என்றெல்லாம் சொல்லலாம். பெற்ற தாயும் எதிர்பார்த்துச் செய்வதில்லை. எதிர்பார்ப்பதும் இல்லை. ஆனால் பிள்ளைகளான நமக்குக் கடமை உண்டல்லவா? அவளுக்கு ஏதேனும் செய்து அவளை மகிழ்ச்சியில் திக்குமுக்காடச் செய்ய வேண்டும்; நாம் செய்வதில் அவள் பெருமை அடைய வேண்டும் என்று நாம் நினைக்கிறோம் அல்லவா? <br /><br />அதைத்தான் கடவுளுக்கும் நாம் செய்ய வேண்டும். அவனை உயர்த்திப் பேசுவதில், புதிதாக அவனுக்குப் பெருமை வந்து விடுவதில்லை. அப்படிப் பேசுவது நமக்குத் தான் பெருமை- எப்படிப்பட்ட தாயை நான் அடைந்துள்ளேன் என்று பிள்ளைகள் பெருமிதத்துடன் சொல்வதைப் போல….Jayasree Saranathan https://www.blogger.com/profile/01048252011566427834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442555339667770589.post-71157487902681455822013-01-30T09:26:03.317+05:302013-01-30T09:26:03.317+05:30Given below is part of my Tamil article explaining...Given below is part of my Tamil article explaining the rationale of ‘pay-back’ to parents after their death.<br /><br />http://www.tamilhindu.com/2010/03/creation-theory-4/<br /><br />மேல்சொன்ன உதாரண விளக்கத்தின் மூலம் தெரியும் மற்றொரு முக்கிய விஷயம் பித்ரு காரியம் ஏன் செய்ய வேண்டும் என்பது. ‘பெற்றோர் இறந்தவுடன் அவர்களுக்கு பித்ரு காரியம் செய்கிறேன் என்றால் அவர்களுக்குத் தெரியவா போகிறது? அது அவர்களை அடையப் போகிறதா என்ன? அதற்குப் பதிலாக அவர்கள் உயிருடன் இருக்கும் போதே அவர்களை நன்றாகக் கவனித்துக் கொண்டால் போதும். இறந்த பிறகு ஸ்ராத்தம் என்று சடங்குகள் செய்யத் தேவையில்லை. அப்படிச் செய்யவில்லை என்றால் அதனால் நம் பிள்ளைகளையும், பேரன்களையும் பாதிக்கும் என்பதெல்லாம் சும்மா புருடா.’– இதுவே இன்றைக்குப் பரவலான கருத்து.<br /><br />பெற்றவர்கள் உயிருடன் இருக்கும் வரை அவர்களை நன்றாகக் கவனித்துக் கொள்ள வேண்டும். இதில் மாற்றுக் கருத்தே இல்லை. இங்கே கொடுக்கல்-வாங்கல் (give and take) என்னும் இயற்கையின் நியதி வருகிறது. அக்னி ஹோத்திரம் ஹோமத்திலும் இந்தக் கொடுக்கல்-வாங்கல் இருப்பதைக் காணலாம். நல்ல காற்றை நாம் எடுத்துக் கொள்கிறோம். அதற்குப் பதிலாக அசுத்தக் காற்றைத் திருப்பித் தருகிறோம். இங்கே இயற்கையின் சமன்பாடு (equilibrium) பாதிப்படைகிறது. திருப்பிக் கொடுத்த காற்றை சுத்தப்படுத்தவில்லை என்றால், நமக்கு மட்டுமல்ல நம்மைச் சுற்றி இருப்பவர்களுக்கும் கிடைப்பது அசுத்தக் காற்றுதான். அதைத் தவிர்க்க அக்னி ஹோத்திரம் செய்யப்படுகிறது.<br /><br />அதைப் போல பெற்றோர் நமக்குச் செய்வதால் நாம் பட்ட கடனை, நாம் திருப்பிக் கொடுக்க வேண்டும். பெற்றோர் மட்டுமல்ல, யாராக இருந்தாலும் அவரிடமிருந்து ஒன்றைப் பெற்றால் அதைத் திருப்பித் தர வேண்டும். இல்லை என்றால் நாம் கடன் பட்டவர்களாகி விடுவோம். கடன்பட்ட ஒருவனால், மற்றோருவனுக்குக் கடன் அளிக்க முடியாது. உயிருடன் உலவும் காலத்தில் யாரிடம் கடன் பட்டாலும், அந்தக் கடனைத் திருப்பித் தரவில்லை என்றால், வேறொரு பிறவியிலாவது அந்தக் கடனை அடைத்து விட முடியும்.<br /><br />இவையெல்லாம் பிறந்தபிறகு – அதாவது வாழும் காலத்தில் நடப்பது.<br />ஆனால் பிறக்கும் முன் பட்ட கடனுக்கு நாம் எப்பொழுது, எப்படித் திருப்பி அடைக்கிறோம்?<br /><br /> தாய், தந்தையரது செல்களின் ஒடுக்கத்தில் நுழைந்து பத்து மாதம் கர்ப்பத்தில் வளர்கிறோமே, அப்பொழுது கடன் படவில்லையா? <br /><br />அவர்களது மரபணு மூலமாக, ஐம்பூதங்களிளிருந்தும், சத்தினை இழுத்து நம் உடலை வளர்க்கிறோமே, அந்த ஐம்பூதங்களுக்கும் கடன் படவில்லையா? இழுக்கும் மூச்சுக் காற்றுக்கே, திருப்பித் தந்தால்தான் நம் வாழ்கை நோயற்று இருக்கும். பலப் பலவிதமான உடல் பகுதிகளுக்காக ஐம்பூதங்களிலிருந்து ஓயாது பத்து மாதங்கள் தேவையானவற்றை தாயின் கொப்பூழ் கொடி மூலமாகப் பெற்றிருக்கிறோமே, அது கடன் இல்லையா? அதை எப்படி, எப்பொழுது திருப்பித் தருகிறோம்?<br /><br />அங்குதான் வேத மதத்தின் மிக உயர்த்த இயற்கை சமன்பாடு சிந்தனை தெரிகிறது. பிண்டமாக, உதகத்தில் (நீரில்) நிலைபெற்று கர்ப்பத்தில் நாம் பெற்றதை, உதகத்தில் பிண்டத்தை இணைத்து, பிண்டோதகக் கிரியையாக, யார் மூலமாகப் பெற்றோமோ, அவர் மூலமாக, அவர் நாம் பிறக்கும் முன் இருந்த நிலையை ஒத்த நிலையை இறப்பில் அடைந்தவுடன், திருப்பித் தருகிறோம்.<br /> <br />இங்கே கடனைத் திருப்பிச் செலுத்த உதவும் Medium பெற்றோர். கடன் பட்டது இயற்கைக்கு.<br /> <br />உதகத்தில், பிண்டம் வளரக் கடன் வாங்கினோம். பிண்டத்தை உதகத்தில் கரைத்து அதைத் திருப்பிச் செலுத்துகிறோம்.<br /><br />(cont'd)Jayasree Saranathan https://www.blogger.com/profile/01048252011566427834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442555339667770589.post-69318814394055913182013-01-30T09:23:21.201+05:302013-01-30T09:23:21.201+05:30You continue:-
//Life is a living hell when ones ...You continue:-<br /><br />//Life is a living hell when ones very parents ill-treat or act partially / indifferently. No matter whatever one tries to do for them, they can't be satisfied let alone praise/bless.//<br /><br />Yes, life will be a living hell if parents treat you badly. There is no justification for that unless you convince yourself that you are paying back for some unknown cause. Natural Justice cannot be cruel if it causes harm to someone without a cause. By what they do, the parents are inviting another round of tit-for-tat, either in this birth, from you or in a future birth. I am saying you don’t become to tool for this tit-for-tat game of action- reaction. You remain calm, or even away from them – because Justice is that one can kill the sacred cow in retaliation when it comes to kill you. That doesn’t mean you can retaliate by abusing or causing harm to your parents. The exception exists only in extreme conditions, as told in the example of cow charging towards you to kill you. <br /><br />Under the scenario of abuse from parents, you have the right to protect yourself and your dependants (wife and your kids). You can do this by keeping away from them or keeping yourself at a distance so that you safeguard yourself from the trauma. At the same time, don’t move away from your responsibility to them – which is mostly taking care of their physical needs, if they are suffering from want of monetary help. You ensure that their basic needs are fulfilled to your capacity. The 3rd scenario in the article comes under this (Varishta yoga). <br /><br />However the moment you hear that they had passed away and even if you had not gone to see their funeral, you are expected to do the final rites for them in the place wherever you are. The reason is this. Whatever one experiences – happiness or sufferings – on account of people (parents or relatives or friends or employers and so on) is paid back only in the way it was experienced initially. And this pay-back happens in mundane existence.<br />But there is a pay-back to be done for what we have taken from others/ through others, before we were born in this mundane world. In the 10 months that we grow in a mother’s womb and the 2 months prior to that we were in the father’s semen, we have taken up some subtle things from their physical, vital and mental constitution. This happens irrespective of whether your mother and father like it or not. <br /><br />In effect through them, you had drawn something from Nature to grow up your body. This is paid back in a span of 12 days (10+2 months in the pre-birth state are equated to 10+2 days in reverse) through them after they had gone to after -death state. <br /><br />So my advice is this. Even if you are abused and ill treated by your parents, don’t return it to them. They will get back for what they are giving you, but make sure that you are not giving that to them, let them get it from some other means. By this you are cutting yourself from the vicious cycle of tit-for-tat with parents.<br /><br />Next is that you have the right to protect yourself, but that doesn’t mean you will do it by hurting them back. Come out of the situation physically, but when your contribution is needed by them in their times of suffering, don’t hesitate to help them. You need not do it directly, but do it indirectly through a 3rd party. The explanation for Varishta yoga in scriptures specifically mentions this.<br /><br />Yet another advice is that you have every right and responsibility to confront your parents if you think that they are unjust. Bharata did that to his mother Kaikeyi. Try to change them. If they cannot be changed, better keep away. <br /><br />I think the rest of your comment has answers in the above explanations.<br /><br />(cont'd)Jayasree Saranathan https://www.blogger.com/profile/01048252011566427834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442555339667770589.post-36680977637664211652013-01-30T09:22:13.111+05:302013-01-30T09:22:13.111+05:30Dear Solestay,
//It is rather fanciful to quote s...Dear Solestay,<br /><br />//It is rather fanciful to quote scriptures saying "No matter what your parents do to you, You must help them in their old age."//<br /><br />Not fanciful. Ok, leave out the scriptures and think about the way you behave. You will be ready to help some Tom, Dick and Harry as philanthropy or due to your good natured-ness. Do you help them expecting something from them (say, love, affection or praise for you) or do you help them thinking that it is in your nature to help others? <br /><br />Suppose they abuse you for some reason – either before or after taking help from you, would your good natured-ness prevent you from helping them or you just ignore it?<br /> Suppose such an abuse takes place much after you have helped them, what would be your reaction? Would you think the right attitude then would be to say that they didn’t deserve your philanthropy or just ignore that they won’t understand your good naturedness.<br /><br /> If you think, that they didn’t deserve your philanthropy or that your philanthropy had gone waste, then it is truer that your philanthropy is wasted. Such philanthropy is not philanthropy at all. For, you are linking that philanthropy to something in return or allowed it to be influenced by the behaviour of the people you have helped. <br /><br />If you are genuinely philanthropic, you would not be affected by what they say or do to you.<br /><br />But chances are that you would stop helping them after that.<br />Two questions are made out from this.<br /><br />(1) If you can be considerate and helpful to some unknown persons even if their attitude towards you is questionable, can’t you extend the same treatment to your parents?<br /><br />(2) Can you choose the response in the last line above the question, that is, stop helping them or ignore them in the case of your parents? <br /><br />Before finding answers for this, let me say a few words on the current day situation. <br /><br />You have said in the next line,<br />//But the very same scriptures are silent on parents who act partially or indifferently.//<br /><br />It is because; parents were not known to behave badly to their children. But that happens nowadays is because of the deterioration of values in accordance with the advancement of Kali yuga. This kind of a scenario – of parents abusing their children – is the phenomenon of the current times. Therefore there is no mention of them in scriptures. But scriptures do say that you get what you give. That means even if they are parents, they would get back for what they are doing to their children. <br /><br />In this context we have to accept another occurrence also.<br /><br />You (just for conveying I say ‘you’. It does not mean you) are born to such parents because there is some pay back you have to do for some abuse done to parents in the past births. This is the only plausible explanation, otherwise where is the justification for your suffering? Why should someone suffer unjustly in the hands of parents inspite of being good to them? <br /><br />With this background explanation we will see the 2 questions. The answer for the first question is your choice. If it is yes, then there is no issue, and you won’t be raising this issue. If you say no, then it brings us to the 2nd question. <br /><br />Here also the plausible explanation can be that only those who have abused others would get back what they did – meaning to say that they would stand to be abused. Here I am cautioning the children (who are receiving the abuse) not to retaliate because then the same of law of justice of what you do to others, would come back to you! If you pay them back in the same buck, you are setting the stage for another round of receiving abuse for what you are doing (back) to your parents now. This is the vicious circle of samsara that works in all spheres of life. <br /><br />(cont'd)Jayasree Saranathan https://www.blogger.com/profile/01048252011566427834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442555339667770589.post-57264328528197886782013-01-29T21:54:06.566+05:302013-01-29T21:54:06.566+05:30Dear Sir/Madam,
It is rather fanciful to quote...Dear Sir/Madam,<br /> It is rather fanciful to quote scriptures saying "No matter what your parents do to you, You must help them in their old age." But the very same scriptures are silent on parents who act partially or indifferently. <br />Life is a living hell when ones very parents ill-treat or act partially / indifferently. No matter whatever one tries to do for them, they can't be satisfied let alone praise/bless.<br /><br />Its equally fanciful to say they will suffer in their future birth for this is not righteous behaviour on their part. However that is even more painful since they are our parents. So the best you want for them is that they should not suffer in this birth or any other birth.<br /><br />Bottomline: You don't want them to suffer just because they are your parents. But they do not seem to take it that way. <br />Even noble intentions can be questioned since it depends not only on the attitude of the questioned but also on that of the questioner.Solestaynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442555339667770589.post-59122407248753102682013-01-23T18:19:21.716+05:302013-01-23T18:19:21.716+05:30Namastay Mam,
I am really looking for an article ...Namastay Mam,<br /><br />I am really looking for an article like this. <br /><br />I am very much satisfied with the answers you have given to the questions. <br /><br />1. As you said, I may think I have a "freewill," but that is too part of Maya.<br /><br />2. At the same time, as long as I am conscious and have discrimination power, I "have to" choose the right or wrong. Choosing the right or wrong is a freewill, but what I will choose is predetermined that I do not know at that time, "Buddhi karmanusaarini" i.e. buddhi follows karma.<br /><br />3. I cannot remain neutral. As long as I am part of the play, I have to choose the side, right or wrong. I cannot choose wrong and say that it is "maya" and deny the results. As said by ramakrishna paramahamsa in a man and oncoming elephant example, the oncoming elephant is narayana as well as Mahout who warned not to stand in front of elephant is also narayana and the person has to take the side, right or wrong, but cannot claim innocence by standing in front of elephant narayana and claim that he did no mistake. He misused his freewill and suffered, and all this is part of play in the long run and actually he has no freewill and his buddhi just followed the karma, but for the moment he has to choose the right or wrong.<br /><br />This article is one of the "generic" articles I have read in this blog, which really helps the confused souls and particularly those who misuse karma theory in favor of them when questioned about their misdeeds.<br /><br />Thank You,<br /><br />SURYA.<br /><br />PS: This is a very sensitive issue and read in this blog itself that this was discussed by many rishies earlier, so explanation is not that easy.suryahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18082502300504342386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442555339667770589.post-7093550765496428142013-01-23T15:08:56.481+05:302013-01-23T15:08:56.481+05:30From: mkrishnaswamy
Date: Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 8:2...<br />From: mkrishnaswamy<br />Date: Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 8:20 PM<br />Subject: Re: Non-random-Thoughts:Some insights into Karma, Guna and taking care of parents.<br />To: jayasree <br /><br /><br />A Quote from Joseph Campbell: <br />from: http://www.ribmountainmartialarts.com/writings-joseph-campbell.html <br /><br />MKK<br /><br />Schopenhauer, in his splendid essay called "On an Apparent Intention in the Fate of the Individual," points out that when you reach an advanced age and look back over your lifetime, it can seem to have had a consistent order and plan, as though composed by some novelist. Events that when they occurred had seemed accidental and of little moment turn out to have been indispensable factors in the composition of a consistent plot. <br /><br />So who composed that plot? <br /><br />Schopenhauer suggests that just as your dreams are composed by an aspect of yourself of which your consciousness is unaware, so, too, your whole life is composed by the will within you. And just as people whom you will have met apparently by mere chance became leading agents in the structuring of your life, so, too, will you have served unknowingly as an agent, giving meaning to the lives of others, The whole thing gears together like one big symphony, with everything unconsciously structuring everything else. And Schopenhauer concludes that it is as though our lives were the features of the one great dream of a single dreamer in which all the dream characters dream, too; so that everything links to everything else, moved by the one will to life which is the universal will in nature.<br /><br />It’s a magnificent idea – an idea that appears in India in the mythic image of the Net of Indra, which is a net of gems, where at every crossing of one thread over another there is a gem reflecting all the other reflective gems. <br /><br />Everything arises in mutual relation to everything else, so you can’t blame anybody for anything. It is even as though there were a single intention behind it all, which always makes some kind of sense, though none of us knows what the sense might be, or has lived the life that he quite intended.<br />Jayasree Saranathan https://www.blogger.com/profile/01048252011566427834noreply@blogger.com