tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442555339667770589.post7081260920539498246..comments2024-03-18T22:56:06.696+05:30Comments on Jayasree Saranathan: A peep into the past to know whether castes existed in TamilnaduJayasree Saranathan http://www.blogger.com/profile/01048252011566427834noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442555339667770589.post-9642925046908989622012-11-23T13:58:14.781+05:302012-11-23T13:58:14.781+05:30There is etymological difference between the names...There is etymological difference between the names of tribes engaged in hunting. The Mazavar was the oldest name that was in use in Muruga's times. "மண்டமரட்ட மழவர் குழாத்திடைக் கணட முருகனுங் கண் களித்தான்” என்று வள்ளியை மழவர் குழாத்திடைக் கண்டதை அரும்பதவுரையாசிரியர் கூறுதலால், mazhavar is construed as the oldest name. The use of 'zha' (ழ) is more in sangam terminology. <br /><br />Mazha means young, therefore the mazhavar denotes youth band. This in course of time changed into Maravar. <br /><br />Eyinar were those who use arrows. Ey (எய்)means arrow and those who shoot arrows were Eyinar. Vettuvan is hunter proper. Therefore Mazhavar and Eyinar become Vettuvar by taking up hunting. They also became the keepers of the border regions. They were not core kshatriyas but were classified as Kshatriyas for the kind of attitude (குணம்)of Kshatriya. <br /><br />Another group that comes under similar description is the Palayas. When Pandyan king and his subjects managed to survive the 3rd flood around 3500 years ago, he wrestled Muththoor kuRRam from Cholas according to Adiyaarkku nallar (silappadhikara urai). It is near Kangeyam. At the same time survivors from sunken Bet Dwaraka were also brought there. The Gangeya tribes (Ganga clan) who brought their cattle wealth from IVC in Dwaraka started co existing with the Ayar who accompanied Pandyan king from 3rd flood. The Kangeyam kaalai belongs to same gene pool of Indus bull. They brought the bull fight with them and founded the Mullai thinai culture. For protection of these people, Pandyan established many Palayam and Maravar settlements around which continue in the names of the places here. <br /><br />All the other classes you have mentioned were sub sects that developed in the last 1000 to 1500 years. Please read the inscriptions of the Kongu region published by Archeological dept of TN. You will know how most of them were migrants or shuttlers between regions and how these various sects were developed as a matter of necessity. <br /><br />On Velir (Ori), I don't agree with you. They were the Agnu kula kshatriyas or the descendants of Drishtadyumna and related to Krisha's vrishni clan. They migrated to the Tamil lands 3500 years ago when sarasvathi dried and a tsunami gulped Bet Dwaraka, the Dwaraka that was built after Krishna's dwaraka was lost. <br /><br />All the kadai ezu vallal <br />were Velirs only. Whatever trace of Indus civilization that we find in Tamilnadu is because of these people who brought it here. <br /><br />There are a number on articles in this blogspot on these topics in English. There is a separate series in Tamil on Thamizan Dreavidanaa (தமிழன் திராவிடனா?) in <br />http://thamizhan-thiravidana.blogspot.in/ <br />Please read them.Jayasree Saranathan https://www.blogger.com/profile/01048252011566427834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442555339667770589.post-72464087281826212082012-11-23T13:57:45.639+05:302012-11-23T13:57:45.639+05:30@ anonymous,
Thanks for the details.
The differenc...@ anonymous,<br />Thanks for the details.<br />The difference between kshatriyas and Vettuvars can be known from the difference in the circumstances in which they carried out their duties. While Kshatriya was soldier or army man working directly under the king and taking the orders from the king directly, the Vettuvars fulfilled the space of a ruler or chief in remote areas of the kingdom. <br /><br />The Puraththinai iyal Sutra 60 explains this. ”வேந்து விடு முனைஞர் வேற்றுப் புலக் களவின் ஆதத்து ஓம்பல் மேவற்று ஆகும்”. வேந்தனால் விடப்பட்ட முனை ஊரகத்துள்ளார், வேற்று நாட்டின் களவினானே ஆவைக் கொண்டு பெயர்ந்து பாதுகாக்கும் மேன்மை உடைத்து.<br /><br />The fringe regions of the kingdom could not be effectively protected by the kings' army. So the king deputed the Vettuvar (hunters) to undertake stealing of cattle expeditions and distributing them to the people and also protecting the territory. This can be seen in Vettuva vari of Silappadhikaram. <br /><br />This was characteristic of Kurinji (hill) regions and was prevalent throughput the western Ghats upto Aravalli in Maharashtra. The Mang tribes and Mahar tribes (by whose name the name Maharashtra came into being) of Maharashtra also come under similar category. They worshiped Korravai and you can find this deity throughout the western ghat section. Popular deities are Kollur Mookambikai and Kolahpur Devi. kol, kolla, kollu will be there in use in the names of these regions and deities throughout these region. <br /><br />The Mang and Mahar tribes were branded as thief tribes and also down trodden by the British, because they dealt with buffaloes that included the removal of the dead body of the buffalo. In Vettuva vari in Silappadhikaram, one of the works of Vettuvar was sacrificing buffallo to Korravai (whom they called as Mahishasura mardini - the one who killed Mayidan / mahishan, the buffalo)and later removing the carcass. The social stigma arose only after the traditional system of village life in these regions were spoiled by Muslim and British invasions. <br /><br />(cont'd)Jayasree Saranathan https://www.blogger.com/profile/01048252011566427834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442555339667770589.post-72359253677001638622012-11-23T09:59:46.076+05:302012-11-23T09:59:46.076+05:30'Ayar, Vettuvar.....thinaipeyar' & ...'Ayar, Vettuvar.....thinaipeyar' & 'veriyattu' were described in earlier sangam chronicle Tholkappiyam. Vettuvars were the only tamil Kshatriyar clan during sangam period. Vettuvars (Maravars, Mazhavars, Eyinars, Mutharaiyars) were the only kshatriyas and the rest of the kshatriya clans were later formed. Mutharaiyars were described as a clan of kings in naaladiyar. Mutharaiyars worship kannappa nayanar and claims the lineage as vettuvars do & Vettuvars are discribed as muthurajas in palayapattu varalaaru. kadaiyelu vallal valvil ori who ruled kongu region(kolli hills and namakkal region) was said to be a vettuvar king belong to subclan 'Mazhavars' & king Athiyaman is a mazhava vettuvar king. vettuvars are said to be maravars in sangam. Eyinars (Archers) are vettuvars. some sect of vettuvars also lived as kallars. Tholkappiyam clearly says that muruga worship originated from vettuvars. Valli belongs to vettuvar tribe. Muruga was a vettuvar god. The origin of kaali came from vettuvars(silambu, vettuva vari). The present day vettuvars (kongu vettuva gounder, pollachi zameen pooluva gounders, punnan vettuva gounders, vettuvars, vettaikarars) were categorized as military castes by britishers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442555339667770589.post-73314667482506488522008-10-07T12:30:00.000+05:302008-10-07T12:30:00.000+05:30My thanks for the details.I will go through them a...My thanks for the details.<BR/>I will go through them and such other related ones and get back to continuing this thread after November.Jayasree Saranathan https://www.blogger.com/profile/01048252011566427834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442555339667770589.post-58887137852584355112008-10-07T11:26:00.000+05:302008-10-07T11:26:00.000+05:30Vanniyas call themselves as 'Vanniya-kula-Ksha...Vanniyas call themselves as 'Vanniya-kula-Kshatirya'. They also call themselves as 'Padaiyachi (Army force) Gounder'. This name negates the Vaishya association.<BR/><BR/>They are mostly found in the Northern districts of present day Tamil Nadu. Their main dieties are Gangai-amman, Draupadi-amman, Gandhari-amman. They broadly divide themselves into two sects: Saivaites and Vaishnavites and the latter group strictly observe the Saturday 'vratam' during the Tamil month of Purattasi and sport the 'Urdhva Pundram (or) Namam'. But unlike the Tamil Brahmins, the two sects do not follow endogamity and matrimonial alliances are common between the sects. <BR/><BR/>Drupada ruled over Panchala desam (which can be identified with present day Bihar & West Bengal area. Later on that region came to be called as Gouda desam.<BR/><BR/>Assuming the Kali-yugam starting (and obviously the Mahabharatam period) of around 5100 BCE, the 'Vahniya' (I am still sticking with my assumption that the Sanskrit "Vahni-meaning Agni" is the root word of their origin) population consolidated itself in the Panchala desam and the subsequent Gouda desam.<BR/><BR/>Another assumption I would here make is that there had been a series of migrations from Gouda desam to Dravida regions.. All the people who migrated retained their identity as Goudas (Gouder - then modified as Gounder). They had mostly settle in present day:<BR/>- a) Northern districts of Tamil Nadu<BR/>- b) Southern districts of Karnataka<BR/>- c) Western districts of Tamil Nadu.<BR/>Category a)are the Vanniyars (Kshatriya-Padayachi Gounders).<BR/>Category b) are the Vokkaliga (Gowdas of Karnataka).<BR/>Category c) are the Vellala Gounders (Involved in Agriculture-land owners) of Coimbatore region.<BR/><BR/>Just like the Vanniyas - who have carried their 'Kula' Gods (Ganga, Daupadi, Gandhari), the Vella Gounders have also established Kumara worship in their region. Their chief God is Muruga. Skanda worship was very popular in Bihar region in the past (Chandragupta Maurya goes and prays in the temple of (Deva)Senapati in Pataliputra before embarking on his numerous expeditions). Senapati is a prestigious name in many (Vellala) Gounder families. Chandragupta Maurya is supposed to have taken up Sanyasa and spent his last days in Southern Karnataka (Shravana-bela-gola). So did he follow his fellow countrymen - or did his countrymen follow him to the South?<BR/><BR/>Today, the awareness of their rich past culture among Vanniyas seems to have been overtaken by the deluge of Tamil Chauvinism by their so-called caste leaders in the race for reservation quota.<BR/><BR/>All Tamilians seems to have become obsessed with the questionable theory of they being Dravidians and try to get potrayed themselves as being 'more-Tamil'. This feeling is present in other regions like Andhra, Karnataka etc., but they do not deny their heritage - which is nothing but the continuity of our civilsation that has been in existence for many thousands of years.<BR/><BR/>Every caste in Tamil Nadu (except the 'condemned-Aryan-Brahmins') thus try to erase their history and cut the roots to Sanatana Dharma.<BR/><BR/>This is what the anti-Hindu forces have been trying to achieve for the last few decades. This makes their 'harvesting' task much easier.<BR/><BR/>I am sorry if I digressed from my original purpose of the post - but I think that if we do not try to have a relevant conclusion of this topic, then all out Findings, Hypotheses-Theories-Analyses are just plain Data.<BR/><BR/>Ok, now coming back to Vanniyas - they are not traders. They have been involved in various rural vocations - like agriculture, small-time trading etc. Economically, they had not prospered - and did not get benefit from the reservation policy of initiated from the 1920s by the Justice Party. They never were part of the DMK and sided with the Congress and had great leaders like Ramaswami Padayachi. They did not get much benefit from the DMK rule from the late 60's and that grudge was carried till the 80's when the Vanniya Sangam agitation for nearly a decade led to the creation of a 'Most-backward' Category within the Backward Category.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442555339667770589.post-33599469959678364962008-09-30T23:54:00.000+05:302008-09-30T23:54:00.000+05:30From you comment the ba- va interchange.Vahni - ba...From you comment the ba- va interchange.<BR/>Vahni - bahni<BR/>remember the Bangla desh freedom fighters of <BR/>Mukthi vaahni - Mukhthi Baahni?Jayasree Saranathan https://www.blogger.com/profile/01048252011566427834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442555339667770589.post-55075489916458780602008-09-30T23:53:00.000+05:302008-09-30T23:53:00.000+05:30Tamil texts do not talk about vanniyas. It talks a...Tamil texts do not talk about vanniyas. It talks about only vaNigar.<BR/><BR/>vaNigar are traders and are known as vaisyas in sanskrit.<BR/><BR/>In the list I provided form Purananuru, arasar (kashathriyas) and brahmins had exited as they were. <BR/>The reason was, as I wrote - the absence of competition or symbiotic existence with any other group. <BR/>But the VaNigars were many - depending on their trade. Differences in social status came up in course of time due to the differences in material benefit from the respective avocations.<BR/><BR/>Since vanniyas were mostly traders, I inferred that they belong to vaisya varna. But your information is truly valuable in that it reinforces my finding that migrated population from Dwaraka (Gujarath)after krishna's exit that was brought to Tamilnadu by Agasthya merged with the local population to some extent whereas a majority of them who settled in the border areas of Cholas and pandyas later became Keralites and kannadigas who were referred to as Dravidas by another section of Dwaraka migrants that was settled in Kashmir from the time of Dwaraka deluge.<BR/><BR/>The term Vanniya sounds like Banya community (traders) of Gujarat. The 'ba' - 'va' interchange is common when it comes to Tamil . Eg basanthi - vasanthi<BR/>bandE (in kannada) - vanden in Tamil.<BR/>bahula - vahula<BR/>banni- (kannada)- vaanga<BR/>Bengal - VangaaLam.<BR/><BR/>and many more.<BR/><BR/>It appears for certain that the Banyas of dwaraka - the descendants or subjects of Dhrishtadymna were one of the 18 communities brought to Tamil nadu by Agasthya. They later (perhaps) came to be called as vanniyas.<BR/><BR/>Please read my many posts on this subject - a group of it posted in the recent post "The great bath - a pushkarini".<BR/><BR/>I request you to send me any other information about this <BR/>that you have with you.<BR/><BR/>I will be continuing the post on this thread under the label "No dravidian divide" after Deepavali.<BR/><BR/>The migration from Gujarat has evidence in Tamil texts. I have written about it in quite a few posts in this blog.Jayasree Saranathan https://www.blogger.com/profile/01048252011566427834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442555339667770589.post-87890507178643754332008-09-30T16:03:00.000+05:302008-09-30T16:03:00.000+05:30I thinking equating Vaishyas (VaNigar) with presen...I thinking equating Vaishyas (VaNigar) with present day Vanniyas is not correct.<BR/><BR/>As per Vanniya tradition, they had originated from the "fire" (also known as Vahni in Sanskrit) to protect Draupadi, who was also born from the same sacrifical fire of Drupada.<BR/>So that explains there name origin too.<BR/>Also please note the 'na' phonetic sound used in VaNigar is different from that in Vanniya.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com