Friday, November 25, 2011

Mystery of Mt Toba (Sundaland) explained through Puranas!

The Hindu wisdom is always encapsulated so that it is preserved against mutilation and also makes itself revealed only to the seeker. This wisdom is three-fold, physical, divine and symbolic. There is a verse in Aithareya Upanishad that says that Devas want to be invisible, secretive, mysterious, indirect, hidden and so on. This is told in a single word "parOkshENa" ("parOksha priya iva hi dEvaa:" Ai Upa - 1-3 -14).

That is why we find most of the stories of Puranas and of deities indiscernible or even absurd at normal reading, metaphysical on deeper contemplation but revealing geological stories of man and creation when seen in the light of revelations of diverse fields of modern science. In this post I am bringing out the inner secret of Tripura Samhara by Lord Shiva that is now revealed in the findings of what is called "Sundaland".

Sundaland is a name given to a cluster of islands in South eats Asia. It consists of Malay peninsula, Java, Sumatra, Borneo and other surrounding areas. The recent developments in sea level research done by Glenn Milne and Graham Hancock have shown that these islands were not islands but were connected as a huge land mass some 22,000 years ago.

The sea level was lower than now by approximately 150 meters thereby offering a good expanse of land for mankind to thrive. This region is a centre of attraction for researchers because this is the "closest area" for early man from east Africa who moved out eastward around one lakh years ago.

The light shades around the continents show the extent of exposed landmass at an earlier time when sea level was low due to Ice Age. The red circle shows the 'Sundaland' which now looks fractured into islands. The migration of man as revealed in genetic studies show that mankind stayed on for thousands of years  somewhere in the Indian Ocean. Currently Indian Ocean, south off India shows no sign of landmass. But with the discovery of Sundaland, there is increased interest in finding out whether it offered habitation for early man.

Another important discovery is that an ancient volcano located in Sundaland erupted about 73,000 years ago causing a wide spread devastation of mankind and other life.

The red star on the left side of Sundaland was the location of Mt Toba, a Super Volcano that erupted then.
The scale of devastation was such that the volcanic ash spread as far as the Arabian sea covering most parts of South India by a few meters.

The red spot in the above picture is the location of Mt Toba and the blue spots are the regions where ash deposits have been identified. Due to the wind direction at the time of eruption, the ash had spread towards west of Indonesia.

Recent excavations in Jwalapuram, in Kurnool district of Andhra Pradesh showed that this village which had an human dwelling at that time (73,000 years ago) was covered with the ash of Mt Toba.

Genetic studies reveal that almost all of mankind vanished then but for a small group from which the current population of the globe has come up. These 2 revelations - a massive burst of a volcano and a small and specific cluster of mankind surviving that catastrophe are remarkably revealed in the Puranic narration of Tripura Samhara.

Before telling about that, I want to describe a few words and concepts that occur in the Puranas.

The Devas were beings who lived in northern hemisphere.
The Asuras  lived in southern hemisphere. They were huge in size too.
The gigantic size of the Asuras is also not a figment of imagination. There is something about gigantism in the  South Pole, the reasons for which Science has not yet found out. Recently many marine life forms of gigantic size have been found out in the Antartic ocean.

A gigantic worm on the floor of Antartica ocean.

The other terms that I want to introduce to the readers are Meru and Naga or snake.

The Meru or the  peak of Meru mountain is the Northern pole. The South pole offers a basis or substratum which was borne by the Giant Tortoise (Vishnu as Kurma). The constant rotation of the axis of Meru causing day and night and changing the climate in the north and south is described as the churning done by Devas and Asuras. Samudra Manthan, as it is called is thus a geological incident written as a story in the Puranas.

The Meru is tied with the snake, Vasuki which is used for churning. It is actually a  personification of the mantle under the crust of the earth. As the earth keeps rotating continuously for eons, the underlying mantle is churned continuously. It erupts wherever there is a weak spot on the crust.Poisonous gases, molten minerals etc come out of the churning. The poisonous gases were de-harmed because Puranas say they are "drunk by Shiva, the Neela kanta" . The molten minerals get solidified in course of time and become valuable metals and gems. This is personified as "Lakshmi, the Goddess of wealth". But for this constant churning, we would not be getting wealth (lakshmi).

 A scene of Samudra Manthan seen at the floor of Atlantic ocean. 

With this background information on some basic concepts of the Puranas, we will proceed with Tripura Samhara.

Tripura means three sides or anything that is three. One can explain it at any level - physical, philosophical etc.
But after coming to know of the Sunda land and the eruption of Mt Toba, the story of Tripura Samhara shows a geological event.The names associated with Tripura samhara bear unique resemblance to the way a Super Volcano was maturing to erupt.

There was a Tarakasura who was killed by Karthikeya.
Tara means star.
Karthikeya is derived from a meaning 'fire' or 'cut'.
A star or star like glowing material was absorbed by Fire (Agni) is the import of this.

After the death of  Tarakasura, his three sons,
Tarakaksha, Vidyunmali and Makalaksha did penanceto become terrific fortresses.
Tarakaksha means star-eyed, Vidyunmali means one wreathed in lightening and Kamalaksha means lotus eyed (red in colour).
They formed 3 cities which were continuously rotating.
The cities were made of iron at the bottom, silver above that and gold on top.
They were fierce and kept rotating thereby tormenting the people.
They were called the Tripura  Asuras.

This description of the Tripura asuras (3 sided asuras) tallies with that of an active volcano.
The initial Volcano, Tarakasura had spewed fire (killed by Karthikeya).
But that was not the end of the Volcano.
It kept being active by being star like sparks (Tarakaksha), lightening (Vidyunmali) and red in color (kamalaksha).

The magma underneath had been so volatile that it is described as though the 3 layers of molten minerals of iron, silver and gold were rotating all the time.

The Devas and Danavas were present in that location, so say the Puranas
We know Asuras, but who are these Danavas?
Generally those in the southern hemisphere were called as Asuras. But there were other people also. One of them were called as Danavas. This is another concept of Puranas which is now proven by genetics.
There was an ancient progenitor of man  (Y-chromosome) and quite a few female progenitors (mt DNA). The current population of the earth have come from them.

In Puranic narration, Sage Kashyapa will appear wherever there is a need for creation of people.
Perhaps he signifies the ancient Y- chromosome.
If someone says that he does not know his Gotra, elders will ask them to adopt Kashyapa Gotra because all Gotras (Y- chromosomes?) have come from Kashyapa.
He was in the Deep South before 70,000 years ago,
near Kashmir around 40,000 ago and
after that his name comes associated with the region that has the Caspian sea.
Kashmir got its name from Kashyapa only.

This sage in the beginning of populating the world married 13 daughters of the Prajapathi (Father of people).
In ordinary understanding, people used to think lowly about this sage and other sages who married many women.
But all those stories are symbolic.
One of his wives was called as Danu. 
The children born to her were called as Danavas!
The lineage from them also were called as Danavas.
This shows that Danavas are coming in a specific maternal-lineage 
They are asuric in nature to some extent.

Popular Danavas are
Hiranya Kasipu,
his son Prahladha, 
Maha Bali, 
his son Banasura, 
Puloma (father in law of Indra and father of Indrani) 
Vrishaparva and 
Maya, the architect.

The Danavas including Maya was present at the time Tripura was fuming!
The torment caused by Tripura was unbearable that  the Devas asked Shiva to kill him.
He did so by using a single arrow.
The killing of Tripura by Shiva was described as Tripura samhara.
The exact process of killing is described in the Sangam Tamil text called Paripadal
which is an exact description of the destruction caused by a Volcano.

Paripadal - 5 says
"naaga naaNaa malai villaaka
moovagai, aareyil Orazal ambin muLiya" 

(நாக நாணா மலை வில்லாக
மூவகை ஆரெயில் ஓரழல் அம்பின் முளிய)

Naaga - snake
naaNaa - as the string (of the bow)
malai - mountain
villaaka - as the bow
moovakai - 3 types
aareyil - walls (fortresses)
Orazal - a single streak of fire
ambin muLiya - at the end of an arrow - killed

That is,
Shiva killed Tripura with the mountain as the arrow and the snakes (mantle / magma) as the string, he blew the 3 fortresses of iron, silver and gold (molten material) by shooting a single arrow which has fire at its end.
The snakes - as we told before - personify the magma trying to come out. 

This describes the sudden and powerful eruption of fire and mantle from inside the mountain (volcano) which resulted in the complete collapse of the volcano.

To depict it pictorially, here is the image of how a volcano looks when it bursts.

The same picture with the personification of a volcanic eruption with the Bow, String and Arrow that Puranas describe in Tripura Samhara is given below.

This Bow -string -arrow symbolism will look like a bursting volcano like this: 

Further description of the narration of the puranas say that as a result of that destruction,  there was ash everywhere. The ash was pale gray in colour. Shiva was completely drenched in that ash. He took up a handful of ash and smeared it on his forehead (the custom of wearing sacred ash started then). Not only that he started dancing! That dance was called as Tripura Samhara Tandava (the dance of destruction of Tripura)

This pose of Tripura samhara also fits in the description of the burst of a Volcano.
The leg has been raised straight upwards showing the path of the arrow from inside the earth
and shot upwards through the mouth of the volcano.

This dance of Shiva is described in the Tamil text, Silappadhikaram as the first among the 11 dance forms. This is called in Tamil as "Pandarangam".
Pandaram means white. 
Shiva was smeared in white ash after the destruction of the Tripura and then he started dancing on the ashes. That was the Pandarangam dance. This is depicted as Tripura smahara dance of Nataraja!

This description from Tamil texts clearly show that Tripiura samhara was indeed a Volcanic burst.
Shiva is associated with destruction.
The way the destruction had happened has been told as a symbolic story.
The Devas were happy about the destruction as the asuras were devastated.
But Maya Danava was present at that time!
He was a Shiva worshiper.
Seeing him trapped in the fire that ensued, Shiva saved him.
This shows the Danavas also escaped and continued their life.

Now let us look at corresponding clues to the location around Mt Toba.
(Toba sounds like a corrupt form of Tripura. Locals in that area might give us some leads on how that name Toba was pronounced in olden days) 

When Mt Toba erupted, the land looked like above. The red mark denotes the location of Mt Toba.

In the picture above we see so many locations of Sumatra having the name 'Pulau' which sounds similar to Puloma, the Danava who once inhabited this location according to the Puranas.
From where these names starting with Pulau come?

Now take a look at this picture.
There is a place called Tarakan in this region (Kalimanthan)
The red star shows the area of Tarakan  and the inserted picture shows Toba and Tarakan.
Tarakan has underground oil fields, thereby substantiating  our analysis that this location has for long experienced hot beds underneath.
In the story of Tripura samhara, we see Taraka or Tarakasura as the father who was destroyed by Karthikeya. 
The 3 Tripura asuras were the sons of Tarakasura.
In the picture above, there is a Taraka and also on the same line Mt Toba.
This seems to be the Father and the sons according to Puranic symbolism. 
The location of Tarakan now must be researched to know whether it was the location a volcano that burst in much older times. 

Tarakan is in a place called Kalimanthan.
Look at the name Kalimanthan, it means Kali's rotations or agitated dance.
In Tripura Tandava, Kali, the better half of Shiva also joined the dance.

Look at this picture.

We can see the Puranic characters Maya, Indra etc connected with Tripura samhara.
There are many places in this region having Maya name attested somehow.
There is Maya Karimatha and a Mayo island!
There is Indramayu!
Bali island reminds of Bali danava.
This location had been occupied by danavas in Tripura samhara times.

In addition there is a Madura and Yamadena.

This would raise doubts whether this region was originally the
Tamil region of old Pandyas, the Then- Madurai.
No I dont think so.
Then-Madurai was lost due to sea-floods.
Shiva was the protector deity and a king of that land once.
But the Sundaland region suffered the wrath of Shiva and it bore the brunt of fire not water.

This makes us think that the Madurese came to occupy this part
after their Then-Madurai was devastated by a flood.
According to Sangam Tamil texts,
the Pandyan king along with the survivors landed in the then extended region of South India
in a place called Kapatapuram. 
It is probable that many of his subjects have either died or managed to survive in nearby islands.
One such group would have landed in Sumatra and started new life.
It is always a habit with people to call their new locations with their old place- names.

The Madurese carry resemblance to Tamil life described in Tamil texts,
such as making salt as their profession (called as Umanar in sangam text)

and conducting bull races!!

Close to this place is a place called Yamadena, a word resembling the Vedic concept of Yama , the lord of death. The people here have a old stone-boat in which they do ancestor worship.

The broken stone -boat at Yamadena.

It looks that the people who escaped a great flood in a boat had reached this island.
The boat stood rock-strong that they escaped,
while others of their clan in other boats had drowned.
The people had done obeisances in their memory in a boat made of stone.

These 2 places, Madura and Yamadena seem to come from a people of later times
who escaped a flood.
Such a flood devastated Then Madurai about 7000 years ago.
But the rest of Sundaland bear the imprint of Tarakasura
as a Super volcano which caused havoc to the population.

The people who had escaped the havoc have managed to live in other areas nearby.
Though Indian Ocean seems to be devoid of land to support people,
it did have good many locations which were mostly top of the mountains
of 90 east ridge and the other long range on south of Arabian sea.
There were scattered regions where people could have stayed.

 The Mascarene region was a landmass as huge as Tamilnadu  that was above sea water some 7000 years ago.

The memory of Mt Toba was carried on for 1000s of years
which was personified as the destruction caused by Lord Shiva.
In my opinion, the people had started recognizing the stars of the sky and watching the patterns and relating them to events abour 70,000 years ago.
The name Tarakasura, though could have been coined later, was coined so to show that the knowledge of stars started at the time of Tripura (Mt Toba) 
The Tripura samhara was 'predicted' to happen on the day when Moon comes in conjunction with the star Pushya.

The study of stars must have started then and was gradually developed.
By the time people overcame the impact of the Volcano and started new life,
sages would have come into existence through contemplation and deep thought on sun and stars.
The period of Daksha comes later and he is identified as having 27 stars as daughters.
So that is the period of the actual birth of astrology.
The oldest name for astrology is 'Nakshatra darsana' (seeing the stars or the philosophy of stars)
and not Jyothisha.
The Hindu astrology is based on star positions and  the position of planets in the stars.
There is a puranaic narration of Daksha having his head replaced with the head of a ram.
That symbolizes the birth of the knowledge of the zodiac.
All these go far backwards in time, perhaps 40,000 years before present.

The contemplation on Nature by the people of that era resulted in the birth of Vedic Thought and the formulation of symbolisms for natural events such as Toba eruption.
The Sundaland existed then and people had moved back to occupy them.
They also carried their symbolisms and named the places as Pualu, Mayo, Taraka and so on.

Daksha's people suffered the wrath of Shiva (destruction) some time later in the form of a devastating fire. That was another period in the past which we will discuss in another post.


seadog4227 said...

As usual, a fascinating and awe inspiring!
It shows how precarious and precious our lives are and Yudhishtra's question "...Kim japan muchyate janma-samsara bandhanat? " assumes real significance.

Jayasree Saranathan said...

W seadog4227

Thanks for the comment.
Please note 2 new illustrations added to show how a bursting volcano is comparable to Bow-string and arrow. I have also added some info on Tarakan under the picture showing the location of Tarakan in Kalimanthan.

Venkat said...

The symbolic nature of our pUraanas are really awe inspiring. As usual your article is thought provoking. I have been recounting Dashavataram to my children, one at a time, While on Bali, i was wondering as to why he is revered only in getting some clarity on that question based on your article. similarly, parasurama is credited to have created today's kerala...this also goes well with the split of sundaland. i may be sounding confused, but guess this is the first step to clarity. any thoughts?

Anonymous said...

It is heart melting to read the glory of Lord Siva. All Merciful Siva saving maya from fire tells us that He can easily save us from the vicious fire of worries and sufferings. Hail Him...

Thanks for the wonderful post.

Jayasree Saranathan said...

@ Mr Venkat,

Tripura - Toba incident happened 73,000 years ago. Compared to that Bali (Vamana avatara) and Parasurama were recent ones. It is difficult to explain in this comment section.

To say in a nutshell, the 10 avatars happened in Bharath after Vaivasvatha Manu entered Saraswathy region about 13,500 years ago. Avatars with human forms happened within this period. Some avatars are geological symbolisms and have occurred in lakhs of years.

On Bali, I have written already the symbolism. It can be read in this post: (The first one will start with some issue on MK and then will proceed to explain Bali)

In my opinion, Bali had no connection with Kerala, but such a connection was cooked up later.

On Parasurama, if you can read Tamil, please browse my Tamil blog

by key word பரசுராமர் typed in the search box. You may download NHM writer and use Tamil fonts to write.

Parasurama (7000 years BP) restored the land extended on the west of western ghats which were occupied by people during the Ice age when the sea level was low. (14,000 years ago) Vaivasvatha Manu lived in that extended region to the west of Maharashtra. I will write a post some time later with sea level maps and habitations at that time, with corroboratory info from Texts to show that Manu, the progenitor of the current people of North India and other parts of India lived there. In the Tamil blog I have already started writing those information.

Jayasree Saranathan said...

Thanks Mr Nagarajan

surya said...

Namastay mam,

In the above link, there is something about kapila and sagaras.

You might have already read/heard about it.

NVS Prakasam.

PS: Bone of Contention remains the same:)...but for other spiritual topics, I choose your blog only.

Aishu said...

If Devas were human beings living in the northern region, why do we worship them? Did they have mystical powers that they were revered? I have always equated Devas with Gods because in our mythological stories they are the superheros.

seadog4227 said...

Unconnected post:
From the videos of Rajiv Dixit (Bharat Swabhiman) and Uttam Maheshwari (also Bharat Swabhiman) there are comments that animal slaughter for food causes earthquakes, and they cite research for their comments. Could you please elaborate/comment?

Anonymous said...

you are 100pct correct. i am one of the leading exporter of salt to branda madura ( it sounds as brinda madura) which is just 4 hours drive from surabaya. This Branda madura ( one word and it sounds like brinda madura) is located in
pamekasan, jawa , east timur.
our business friends have names like 'Putra" and companies are samudra mandari or similar besides the name of ship in indonesian is same like tamil word "kappal" and also "samudram" -they are muslims but soft people like indians and not hardcore muslims. indonesias main salt producing center is branda madura. As u rightly said people from coastal area ( from rameswaram-danishkodi to tuticorin along along the salt producing belt ) must have immigrated to this places as their faces also look like that of down south tamils. Jakartha airport just outside in the main highways you can see lord krishna giving B gita to arjuna big statue and similar to this, Bhima statue,kadothgajan statues are also seen on the main road of jakartha. Indonesia by name shows like india- national symbol is garudan (national airlines- garuda) national tree is Baniyan. indonesia has big reserve of coal,petroleum well besides many rare minerals like nickel, copper.your article is v good and interesting to me.

Jayasree Saranathan said...

@ Surya,

The narration on Kapila- Sagara on the origin of Ganges given in the link that you have quoted itself shows why we need to present Puranic narrations with logic and relevance. When people try to interpret without taking into account the logic and cross references, the puranic narrations will be distorted and people would consider them as myths. I think my articles do a better job by making people think that there might be something behind the Puranic narrations and that they are not myths.

I have deciphered the story of Kapila- sagara- Ganges, on the basis of cross references and scientific findings in my post

It is in Tamil.

It is your wish to continue to read my blog or not. Anyway thanks for reading all these days.

Jayasree Saranathan said...

@ Aishu,

Our Puranas and Ithihasic narrations speak of Devas in 3 levels - cosmological, divine and physical manifestations. The term Deva is also interpreted as a quality that anyone can possess. A man can become a Deva by that quality.

In a short passage in the post in the following link, I had shown what Deva means in the context of explaining the word daanam

To give an example of how the term Deva has threefold interpretation, Indra who is the Lord of Devas (Devendra)must be understood as a cosmological principle of rains, lightening and thunder when we read the narration that Indra destroyed with his arrows (rain showers)/ killed the embryo with his Vajrayudha (burst something with lightening) etc.

The same Indra is a divine principle when we read a description that he bestows riches and happiness. He as the symbolism of Indiriyas will give Indriya-sukha (pleasure of the senses) when worshiped. Today Indra- worship is done through the worship of Venus graha / Shukra / Indrani who grant them.

The same Indra was also the titular name of the leader of the people who lived near the North Pole. The same titular name as Indra is given to the leader of people who lived near the South pole when conditions were conducive for people to live there. The South pole Indra was known as Naganatha. There are many references to substantiate these Indras.

The subject of Devas is so vast that I can not write in a single article. I have written 3 articles on the 3-some manifetataion of Indra in my Tamil blog.

Gods are different. Like how man can become a Deva by his good deed, a Deva can attain Godhood. Rama, Krishna are Gods who were born with forms. Muruga and Ganesha also come in that category but they too have 3 some manifestation (cosmological, divine and physical).

The basis of all these lie in understanding a simple looking passage from Taittiya upanishad,"Bhurithuia agni, Bhuvarithi vaayuhu, suvarthyaadhithyE"
Agni, Vayu and Adhithya tattava are manifest as Gods of diverse nature. Devas are way below them.

Jayasree Saranathan said...

@ seadog4227

I have not seen the material you have mentioned. There are research findings that blame animal slaughter for causing havoc to the environment. It is possible that earthquakes also are one of the havocs.

Contrary to what a section of Hindus think, Sanathana Dharma does not support killing and non vegetarianism.

The post in this link and the comments I exchanged with a reader Mr Anand for that post, will give some idea about how the only slaughter approved in the last verse of Chandogya Upanishad - done for Vedic karma- must be understood.

Jayasree Saranathan said...

@ anonymous,
Interesting and thanks for sharing.
Branda Madura sounds like 'parantha mathurai' (பரந்த மதுரை), virintha Mathurai or Viruntha mathurai.
Then-Mathurai was an enclosed city. If this Madura was a vast expanse of area, it is possible that settlers had called it as Virintha mathurai / parantha mathurai which could change into prantha mathura and Bruntha Madura.

Vrundha means Thulasi plant. If this place has abundant growth of Thulasi plants, this name could mean that.

nutwit said...

ParamAchArya of Kanchi had this to say
"In my opinion the Vedic religion was once prevalent all over the world. Certain ruins and relics found in various regions of the planet attest to this fact. Even historians who disagree with my view concede that in the past people in many lands accepted Indian culture and the way of life willingly and not on account of any force on our part."

appalam vadaam said...

Dear Mami :

Wrong place to post this comment. But, could you pls let me know what to make out of for Phoenix Arizona USA. It is saying 8th Dec Karthigai nakshatram is N: Krittika [Sulochana] 27:50:39+

Does that mean today is Bharani - It says 7th Dec - N: Bharani [Madhyaksha] 25:18:18+

I guess we should have lit Bharani deepam - already I missed then ! :(

At least I don't want to miss Karthigai Deepam! Could you please let me know? is what I am using to get the timings. Also, I don't see any eclipse for us. So, looks like we are spared of the eclipse portion of sarvalaya deepam.

Anonymous said...

Interesting article.
But in Indonesian tongue, Pulau = Nusa = Island.
There are also places with Indra/Indera part, i.e. Indragiri (giri mean mountain, right?) and Indrapura (pura=candi=temple). Apparently Indonesia and India shared a common history.

Unknown said...

Namaste/hello from Indonesia:

Surely, Indonesia and India are of common history by proximity. Indonesia's history was of Hinduism and Buddhism. The latter period-Islam, came from India, not the Middle East. This article is interesting. In Java, the language has mainly derived from the Sanskrit sources during the golden age of Hinduism in Java and later, Buddhism.

I have also been doing research of mythological as well as mystical stories related to geological phenomena, especially of India Subcontinent tectonic plate and the Java/Sunda Trench.

Do you have more stories of MERU (of India) and TOBA connections in the surrounding area? ( I know the legend of MERU and Java)

Thank you.

Ashwin Narasimhan said...

Intriguing to read these articles, mam...
Thanks for your valuable research!!!

From this post and some other posts about the 4 main lineages(Manavas, Danavas, Daityas and Asuras), I have these inferences:

1) Danavas, Asuras and Daityas came much earlier from Danu and Diti(mother of both Asuras and Daityas)who in turn are the wives of Sage Kashyapa(symbolically).

2) Manavas and Pandyas came later (in the lineage of Danavas??). Both of them came from Daksha Prajapati whose daughter Gowri was married to Shiva.

3) The landmass of India was originally an extension of present day Africa and some submerged islands in the Indian Ocean (perhaps Hancock's maps have this info based on timelines??).

4) Manu, the current progenitor of North India was residing in one of the islands of Indian Ocean (perhaps as a Pandya ruler??) and due to a deluge shifted to Indian mainland through Saraswati river.

Few questions that come up when reading the posts:

1) When Pandyans and Manavas were inhabiting the islands of Indian Ocean, was Indian mainland COMPLETELY uninhabited by humans due to the terrain according to Hancock's vegetation maps of that time?

2) According to your research, the period of revelation of Vedas came after Manavas entered India and NOT before. If so, is my inference that "Vedas as a hidden knowledge (just like Gravity was discovered) in seed form was existing but not yet revealed to humans before that" is right? This is because, the Hayagreeva and Matsya avataras who had supposed to have preserved/recovered the lost/existing Vedas must be the rationale behind my inference above.

Please clarify...


Jayasree Saranathan said...

Thanks Mr Ashwin Narasimhan,

It is from the questions from serious readers like you, I am developing my knowledge with more clarity.
Here are my replies.

1) First about the 4 lineages. They are Devas, Asuras (Daityas), Danavas and Manavas according to Siddhnatha Shiromani. This must be the later classification. The earliest classification must have been just Devas and Asuras, based on the hemispherical location. Then there was also a classification based on the Gunas that we know from Brihadaaranyaka Upanishad. (5-2.1to3). It was Deva, Asura and Manushya. So we have to be sure about the context where these names appear.

You wrote
//1) Danavas, Asuras and Daityas came much earlier from Danu and Diti(mother of both Asuras and Daityas)who in turn are the wives of Sage Kashyapa(symbolically).//

There is no reference to earlier or later. Danu and Diti seemed to have thrived simultaneously. The asuras might refer to Negroids and Daityas (Chinese) together. There is a genetic study that says that a minor mutation led to the branching of Chinese from Negroids. Today's Chinese must have been known as Daityas, today's European population was known as Danavas. Their early ancestors were in southern hemisphere, probably in Sundaland.

By Kashyapa's name as father, there is scope to say that their patrilineal origin was same or from the branches of a same source.

2) You wrote
//2) Manavas and Pandyas came later (in the lineage of Danavas??). Both of them came from Daksha Prajapati whose daughter Gowri was married to Shiva.//

First let me make one thing clear. What was connection between Manavas and Daitya - Danavas? Manavas came from Manu (R haplogroup) - read the rationale in my Ukrane article

Read also this wiki article on R haplogroup - Y DNA

R Haplogroup is almost extinct today. We have only further-down branches.

Coming to the question, Manavas (descendants of Manu) refer to patrilineal descent. Whereas Daityas and Danavans refer to matrilineal descent. Diti and Danu had a sister clan, Aditi from whom Vamana descended. From Aditi, Vivasvan also descended. Manu was Vivasvan's son. So Manu happens to be the grandson of Aditi and Diti and Danu were sisters of Manu's grand mother. So we can find a further descent or branching after core Daitya and Danava.

But Manu gets a recognition from Y DNA not from mtDNA. That means there were varieties of mtDNA for Manavas, but Y DNA was steadily coming from Manu, whose father was Vivasvan and grandfather was Kashyapa. By this we can infer, that Manava's Y DNA lineage is the oldest, while mt DNA is mixed, with major part having distant connection with Diti and Danu.

Pandyas also must have been Manavas. Gowri or Parvathy is more recent and not considered as mtDNA. In Pandya's case the father was from Himalayas (Kailash - Sundaresa) which must have been a far ancient Y DNA. So on father's side Manu and Pandyas could have been related but can't be said to have come from a same Y DNA haplogroup.

This explains the perceived difference in ancient N.Indian (ANI) and ancient S. Indian (ASI). Both ANI and ASI had an affinity in a distant past, say 25K or 40K yrs ago. One had already moved to N. India and settled down in the Himalayan region. (Sundaresa). Reference to origin of oldest man in Manali region may have come from this.

The ASI continued in the south seas and south India.

So far genetic studies show oldest paternal lineage R1a1 in India and South India. The maternal is still oldest in most of India and particularly in South India and is of the same descent.

Jayasree Saranathan said...

(continued from above)

Your wrote
//3) The landmass of India was originally an extension of present day Africa and some submerged islands in the Indian Ocean (perhaps Hancock's maps have this info based on timelines??).//

There were scattered lands (islands that were peaks of submerged western ghats in Indian ocean). This is on the western section of Indian ocean.

On the east, Sundaland was a raised land about 25 K years ago. In my opinion Hiranyakashipu and Hiranmyakshan lived there. Prahladha lived there. Nrismha and Vamana avatars happened there. Vamana was son of Aditi. In his period, Sundaland started getting inundated. That started from 25K and came to the present level sometime in 12 - 15 K years ago. Around that time Manu had come to settle down in the extended regions of west coast of India. North India was very cold due to Ice age in Northern hemisphere.

Pandyas thrived in islands of Indian ocean which was originally known as Shaka dweepa. In the latter part of this article here I have explained the connection between Shaka dweepa and Pandyan lands

There are many articles in
Check 2011 archives.

You wrote
//4) Manu, the current progenitor of North India was residing in one of the islands of Indian Ocean (perhaps as a Pandya ruler??) and due to a deluge shifted to Indian mainland through Saraswati river.//
Explained above. The first wave of sea rise that impacted Arabian sea in the wake of end of Ice age must have pushed him into Saraswathy. Pandyans survived this in Southern Madurai and built a wall around Madurai at that time.

Jayasree Saranathan said...

Continued from above,

you wrote
//1) When Pandyans and Manavas were inhabiting the islands of Indian Ocean, was Indian mainland COMPLETELY uninhabited by humans due to the terrain according to Hancock's vegetation maps of that time?//

Population had been there but was sparse. The previous 2 Manus are associated with Manali and Vindhyan region.

You wrote
//2) According to your research, the period of revelation of Vedas came after Manavas entered India and NOT before. If so, is my inference that "Vedas as a hidden knowledge (just like Gravity was discovered) in seed form was existing but not yet revealed to humans before that" is right? This is because, the Hayagreeva and Matsya avataras who had supposed to have preserved/recovered the lost/existing Vedas must be the rationale behind my inference above.//

Vedas were there in Sundaland too 25K years ago. Hayagreeva concept must have started there. Read my Udaya giri article and on Valakhilyas whom I consider to be older than Rig Vedic manavas.

Ashwin Narasimhan said...

Thanks for your replies mam.
I am really intrigued by your posts.

The above questions of mine is an attempt to consolidate all the info from your blog on timelines and the associated group of humans of the current manvanthara so that there is a clearer sequential picture.

Jayasree Saranathan said...

@ Ashwin Narasimhan,

I have not yet written this particular topic in a concise form and in a single article. The reason being, once I get into each feature of this topic it branches out into intensive and expanding topic. Then there comes some missing links for which there is not enough rational data to justify. So I am going in bits and pieces hoping to join the dots one by one. And one of it is on Maha bali - a Daitya whose habitat was wiped out long long ago. My next article under preparation now is on Onam, wherein I will be bringing that angle on Mahabali. Please stay tuned to my blog.

Sunil K. Bhattacharjya said...

Good that you are publishing your book on the date of the Mahabharata War. Hope you are taking care of the important atronomical data,such as, which shows the origin of Bhismashtami in the Magha month and that Bhishma left his mortal frame at the beginning of the Uttarayana etc.

Nilesh Oak's work on Arundhati going ahead of Vasistha in 5561 BCE is wrong. I found that actually astronomcally the 32nd century BCE date only is supported by Astronomy. After my present preoccupation is over I may prepare a paper on this.

Prof. Achar should have worked on the conventional date, but his loyalty to Prof. Raghavan seems to have overcome his care for the truth.

Sunil K Bhattacharjya

Jayasree Saranathan said...

Dear Sunil ji,

It seems this comment of yours is inadvertently posted here. I have copy-pasted it and posted at the relevant blog:

Read my response there.

Satya Santhaagraahi said...

Full of flaws , creativity and poetic literary imagery . Won’t stand the test of logic and science . Especially the concept of Tarakasura, Maya, Tripurasura , etc . shows half-baked information and one with common sense can easily judge the hollowness behind your arguments and your thirst to push forward the perverted theory of North-South divide . Britishers has thrust Aryan-Dravidian deceptively and you cooked if up into Deva-Asura. Wish ! Same old wine in new bottle! While your quest for research is praiseworthy , but , sadly , your intellect has been misfiring guided by the very extreme obsession of Tamils, the Dravidian theories of concoction to prove Tamil supremacy and intellectuals like your esteemed self , undoubtedly, are doing it under the guise of Sanatana Dharma activism while your predecessors had done it in an anti-Vedic way , the next generation has been doing this in the name of half - knowledge scientific reconciliation. Sorry to say this but truth is pungent and bitter. You wish to downplay the ancientness of Sanatana Dharma and Vedic lore and every thing associated with it so tactfully. Alas! No true seeker of truth will ever subscribe to your dishes basef on a hidden agenda that lay men can’t grasp some of which are totally baseless assumptions. The only thing highly commendable in your work is you said “I believe” and “in my opinion”... Please don’t try to put a seal of authority on your works madam! I am not from India and I very well grasped the inner intent behind these blogs the moment I read them. Bharateeyas have long - starved for their true pride and let’s not conceal it by presenting it based on one volcanic eruption and one tsunami. Sanatana Dharma is far far far vast and older than these random events and no one would dare say that the entire texts of Sanatana Dharma and such rich experience , prowess and profoundness revolved around one volcanic eruption and scholars like your esteemed self are trying to narrow it down horribly bury it under the volcanic ash and dilute and dissolve it in the lava flood of your feebly-founded proofs .

NB: Not to Hutu the author or anyone , but only was trying to expose the hollowness of these expositions.

Para Brahma Save The Truth of Sanatana Dharma!!! ������

Sudarsan said...

Respected Maam,

I would like to know more about Sundaresa, moving to Kailash, settling there and his relation with Pandyas.. Can you give me pointers to know more on this

My understanding is as follows

1. After the Mt.Toba explosion, Manavas split into 2 groups, those who settled in the sides of Arabian sea and those who were in Indian ocean. Those who were in Indian ocean are early tamils, Pandyas.
2. Now after the first deluge, indian ocean folks survived , meaning the pandyas continued
3. However the Arabian sea Manavas, split into two. One went left (Persia) and the other through opening into Dwaraka (Manu).
4. Parallely at the same time, the Devas lost their sheen and moved into lower climatic regions (uttara kuru)

I hope all of the above are correct.

Here where is Sundaresa, and Lord Muruga coming or related.


Sudarsan said...

Respected Maaam,
I would like to know about Sundaresa in the sequence of events

1. Mt.Toba , all 4 clans were there
2. Manavas moved and settled in Arabian sea
3. Other manavas in indian ocean (Early tamils, Pandyas)
4. First deluge happens
5. Arabian sea dwellers, split into 2 groups. One moved to Dwaraka via Saraswathy river
6. The left direction group moved to Persia
7. The indian ocean dwellers continued to live. This deluge didnt affect them.

Please let me know where, does Sundaresa come here?.

Any pointers will be helpful


Jayasree Saranathan said...

Respected Sudarsan ji,

Sundaresa was a resident of the region around Mt Kailasha. He was mythically spun into Lord Shiva. Thatadakai Piratti was the princess who confronted him and ultimately married him. After marriage, Sundaresa shifted to southern seas and was associated with the launch of the dynasty called Pandya or Gowriya after Gowri (Thadathakai pIratti). He was seen in the image of Lord Shiva. The son born to them was Ugra Kumara alias Muruga. Both he and Muruga devised Tamil and Sanskrit from the pre-exiting language (Paali). The gramamtical Tamil devised by them was popularised by means of Sangam assembly while Sanskrit was Vedic sanskrit used in Homa. Muruga was the first one to have started the Homa culture. In Tamil tradition this is remembered as Muruga teaching AUM to Shiva.

Please watch my video here

Read the last chapter of my book on rise of Vedic culture from Muruga:

Watch the last part of this video on how all the dynasties of India were from within the country

You may browse my blog for more info

Ashwin Narasimhan said...

Respected Madam,

As you say that Lord Sundaresa after His marriage with Thadathakai Piratti thaayar launched the Pandya dynasty, so the forefathers of the thaayar were not Pandyas already? They were simply the descendants of the one who branched out from the original Manavas and became the ASI genome??

Please correct me if i am wrong.

Also,is there any verse from the works of the Sangam literature that states this particular incident?

Thank you,
Ashwin Narasimhan.

Jayasree Saranathan said...

Respected Ashwin ji,

//As you say that Lord Sundaresa after His marriage with Thadathakai Piratti thaayar launched the Pandya dynasty, so the forefathers of the thaayar were not Pandyas already? They were simply the descendants of the one who branched out from the original Manavas and became the ASI genome??//

Sangam texts do tell about one Ugra Kumara Pandyan who threw javelin into the sea when the sea surged to stop it. As a result the sea water stopped where he stood. By this he got the name 'Kadal vadimbalamba nindra Ugra Kumara Pandyan'. He was Muruga. The name Ugra Kumara is used in Madurai Kalambakam. The throwing of javelin is given in Sinnamanur copper plates. Also found in Tiruvilaiyadal Puranam.

Tiruvilaiyadal puranam does refer to the birth of Thadathakai Piratti in Pandyan vamsam. But nothing is divulged on the the dynasty before her. Going by the titular name Pandyans had (Purananauru) as 'Gowiriyar' we can deduce that the recognition of a dynasty started from Thadathakai Piiratti after she married Sundaresa and both came to be regarded as Shiva- Parvathy couple. It was only from Sundaeresa (Shiva) and Muruga (their son) the Sangam age started after deriving grammar for Tamil. So it looks apt to assign the beginning of the dynasty from her.

Manavas refer to the paternal line but here we are seeing maternal line from Thadathakai (Meenakshi). Perhaps the Manavas (originators of Manu) and Thadathagai were from the same paternal lineage (same father). This means the descendants of Thadathakai and Manu must have had same mtDNA. But Y haplogroup was different.

The paternal line of Pandyans goes to Kailash where Sundaresa was confronted by Thadathakai. Was he from ancient north or south gene pool?

Another way of looking at it is - was he (Sundaresa) really a resident of Kailash given the fact that Shiva is referred to as 'Chen sadaiyon' - Red haired. Muruga was also reddish hued in colour giving him the name Sendil, Seyon etc. Such reddish people are known as Rohitas. In Valmiki Ramayana description of southern direction, Rohitas are found mentioned in Deep South. This gives credence to the theory that reddish coloured people lived closer to Australia or towards South Pole. Did Sunderasa originally belong to that place? Did he migrate later to Kailash region as that was the time of end of Ice age? Or did he meet Thadathakai in the south only but to give a mythological connection to Kailash he was associated with Kailash by rishis?

Around the same time red cloured / red haired people appeared in Ireland which was found to be due to a genetic mutation with the origin gene coming from India.
The date coincides with that of Muruga.
The migratory trail of this given by me in

Most of us in South India have 'Shembattai' red-hued hair indicating a distant ancestor having red hair. This must be the old gene pool coming for long since 50K years.

Jayasree Saranathan said...

Ashwin ji

Read this article also on early flood
The date tallied with meltwater pulse 1B whose remains are found near Tahiti
This was localised and matches with the 1st flood supposedly stopped by Muruga