Monday, December 23, 2019

Know the Vedic concept of Uttarayana (Winter solstice)


At a time more and more people start developing interest in Vedic knowledge we are also seeing similar growth in spurious interpretation of the wisdom of the seers. One such topic is about the start of Uttarayana or winter solstice. This blog is aimed at putting at rest the confusions about Uttarayana created by western educated minds and confused desi people. 

Sun is the basis of Time

First of all one must know that the Vedic seers had seen the play of the Divine in everything of Creation. The Sun being the Pratyaksha Brahman is the source of all life. It is known as Ravi because it illuminates and protects the all the three worlds. Brahmanda Purana (21-4) traces the root word of Ravi to 'av' which means illumination and protection. It is also known as Kāla or Time from whom every other computation of time flows. The Brahmanda Purana (Ch 23) verse is reproduced below.


Devas, Humans, animal and plant life are the four types of beings made to function or not function by the power of the Sun. The measurement of Time done on the basis of the Sun has the basic unit of 5 years only, which was in vogue until c.1500 BCE, as known from Lagadha Jyothisha. Almost every other day was important for worship of some divinity in that system. With decline of worship attributable to many reasons, we are no longer using the worship related 5-year Yuga system but retained the same years in the large cycle of 60 years (12 rounds).

Four-fold calculation of time.

The basis of this system is 4-fold in which one without the other meaningless. Quoting from Vayu Purana (Ch 50),
The four types of calculations are (Vayu Purana Ch 50)


Today people tend to treat all the four differently but the verse from Vayu Puarana (which was older than Mahabharata) and also from Brahmanda Purana and Siddhantas (Ganita / astronomy) state that all the four are collectively taken into account to determine time. In this backdrop we should reject the name ‘Luni-solar’ as suggested by western understanding but proudly call it as Vedic-māna or Chatur māna. The moment one starts understanding the interplay of all the four, most confusions disappear.

We are indeed following this Chatur-māna without realising it. The exclusion of Adhika Māsa from the calendar or time scale is to align the Saumya or Chandra-māna with time determined by the Sun. All the four, i.e. the sun, the moon, the star and the Sāvana (checking from sunrise) are reckoned together to know whether the time is fruitful for a religious activity and an auspicious activity.

Today the perfect alignment of the four is being followed only in the Tamil regions which people tend to think as the solar calendar. Functionally it is Chatur māna calendar. Confusion often arises when the calendars based only on lunar movement fail to align the time with the Sun. For example a few years ago Maha Shivaratri occurred in lunar Pushya month. The basic feature for identifying Maha Shivaratri was to have Phalguna as the following month. In this case the following month was Magha. That gave the valuable insight as to what our ancient seers had meant when they specified Phalguna as the following month. It must invariably be the solar month of Phalguna. This implies that Maha Shivaratri occurs at a time the Sun would be in Kumbha (Aquarius).

The insight gained from this is that any specific time identified by a lunar Tithi comes along with a relation to the position of the Sun, for, Time doesn’t exist without the Sun. Based on this we can deduce the exact time of Gitopadesa too.

Time of Gitopadesa.

The complete disconnect with the Chatur-māna scale of time of the Vedic society had resulted in the complete absence of thought about the solar month of Gitopadesa. Gitopadesa was rendered on Margashira Shukla Ekadasi. People tend to treat Margashira as the lunar Margashira. If it was lunar Margashira, where was the Sun at that time? As per lunar reckoning the Sun must have been at Kartika. The identification of time as “Margashira Shukla Ekadasi” with Sun in Kartika is not the proper way of identification of the Chatur- māna. The Sun being the major reckoner of Time, Margashira Shukla Ekadasi must have the Sun at Margashira and the Shukla Paksha must be of lunar Pushya month. (The time gap of one solar month between Kartika and Margashira makes huge impact on arriving at the correct date of Mahabharata war).

Margashira Shukla Ekadasi is the most the celebrated Vaikuntha Ekadasi that conceptually matches with Krishna rendering the knowledge of the means to Moksha. With the decline in knowledge of the 4-fold Time, Gitopadesa is assigned the day in lunar calendar which always falls in the solar Kartika. The month-wise analysis of the Mahabharata events done by me based on the internal evidences shows the date of Gitopadesa with the Sun still confined within the sign of Margashira.


Date of Gitopadesa.

The solar, lunar and savana (sun rise timing) match well, with the star (though not mentioned) that goes well with the war preparation (offerings to Vampire / Pishacha, an olden practice known from the “Bharani” literature in Tamil such as Kalingatthu Bharani, Daksha Yaaga Bharani) done on the previous day, in the star Bharani.

The planetary chart at the time of Gitopadesa

The above details must warm up the reader to the reality that the Sun was the major reckoner of time for any event. The Sun only carries along with it the Devas, the sages and other entities by whom the world and its beings are protected and are made to undergo the karma due to them. In this context we come across the dates of Uttarayana, Dakshinayana and Vishuva as ‘Punya kala’ – auspicious times for worshiping Pitrus and deities. Such times cannot occur at some point in space (of intersection the ecliptic and the celestial equator) but only when the four-fold time factors combine.

Equinox identified by the Sun and the Moon.

A specific verse on the date of equinox is found in both Vayu Purana and Brahmanda Purana.  It tells about the time when the vernal equinox was at 27 degree Aries – the maximum limit that the vernal equinox can travel – a gem of wisdom passed on by the Vedic society from its long past of having observed the celestial entities.  From Vayu Purana Ch 50:


The day of vernal equinox was identified by the location of the Sun in the 1st Pada of Krittika when the Moon was in the 4th Pada of Vishakha. We have to carefully look into the time denoted by this verse.

When the Sun is in Krittika 1st Pada (Aries), the moon at Vishakha would be Full Moon. This happens in solar Chitra month and most probably in lunar Vaishakha month. Full Moon in Vishikha star would happen every 3rd year. Here the verse carefully avoids a reference to Full moon or days before that, but only gives the position of the moon at 4th Pada of Vishakha which will be the last 6 hours of Moon’s transit in Vishakha! This means the Vishuva related worship and homa was done only at the last 6 hours of Moon’s transit in Vishakha in Scorpio when the Sun was in Krittika 1st Pada. Now let the readers ponder over the acceptability of western concept of Vernal equinox which does not take into consideration these intricate features laid out by the Vedic society.

Strangely the time of autumn equinox doesn’t follow the reverse of the vernal equinox. It only follows the position of the Sun at the last pada of Libra, in Vishakha while the moon must continue to be within the last Pada of Aries (1st Pada of Krittika). The Sun cannot be expected to go beyond 27 degrees to the left of zero degree Libra. In both the Vishuva, the sun was at its maximum limit at Aries and Libra respectively. But the identification of ‘Punya Kala’ of Vishuva was by means of Moon’s location in a particular Pada.

Now let me quote another verse from the same chapter of Vayu Purana that tells us why Equinox is important. The verses also say when the Uttrayana starts.


Verse 203 says that equinox is favourable for Devas and Pitrus! Those calling for ‘celebrating’ Uttarayana today (at the time of writing this on 22nd December, the winter solstice of the western astronomy) must tell us in what way they are going to celebrate. The Vedic society valued the four points (2 Vishuva and 2 Ayanarambha) as Punya Kala for paying obeisance to Pitrus and Devas. Even today those who meticulously follow the Vedic life do tarpan on these 4 dates. The Pitrus don’t come on any day that western astronomy declares as Vishuva or solstice. The days that attract them and the Devas as well must have a link with the sun and the moon and also the star – the Star in whose form the Purusha is seen!

For the maximum limit of 27 degree Aries, our Vedic seers had laid down the time for Vishu-Punya Kāla in the above verse. The solstices and the Vishuva are separated by 90 degrees between each other. When the Vishu at Mesha occurs at Krittika 1st Pada, the Uttarayana would be observed on the day when the Sun would be at 2nd Pada of Dhanishtha (27 degree Capricorn). The date of Uttarayana in that position of the Sun is given by Rig Jyothisha. The Moon will be at Dhanishtha and at first tithi. This means when Shukla Pratipat starts with the moon still traversing Dhanishtha, Uttarayana Punya Kala was observed and the Pitru tarpan was given.

Even within the 5-year period, the Uttarayana did not start on the same tithi-stars. The above combination appeared every 6th year only. For other years they followed the formula of shifting the moon (when the sun will be in the ordained position of Vishuva or ayana) to 6th consecutive tithi, in 19th consecutive star. The same formula was used by me to deduce the Vishuva and ayana dates of Mahabharata.

Let me quote the following verse from Brahmanda Purana (Ch 23) to show that Dhanishtha was the foremost star – implying it to be the upper limit of Uttarayana.


The same primacy to Dhanishtha is told by Markandeya in Mahabharata (3-219-10) that Dhanishtha was assigned the foremost position by Brahma. The following figure explained by me in my video Understanding Equinoxes the Vedic way gives the maximum oscillation of the vernal equinoxes with the median position falling at Aries zero degree with corresponding Uttarayana falling at zero degree Capricorn.


Once the equinox started backward movement, the Vedic society seemed to have revamped the Vishuva and Ayana dates. They had prescribed the median position of Uttarayana at the beginning of Capricorn and Vernal equinox at the beginning of Aries. Or why else we get to see the same, repeated again and again in every possible occasion in the Puranas and Siddhantas?

Siddhanta being the foremost literature on mathematical astronomy let me first quote Surya Siddhanta (Ch 14). Only heretics would reject Siddhantas as non-Vedic. All the Siddhantas (Jyothish) have been authored by Vedic sages and all the Siddhantas calculate Time of the life-span of the four-faced Brahma starting from Kalpa.  



The same is expressed in Brahmanda Purana (Ch 21)


The same is repeated in Vayu Purana (Ch 50)


Let anyone who wants to challenge this,  produce evidence from Vedic scriptures. We gloat over the fact that the Vedic society had existed for thousands of years. If precession was a continuous phenomenon the Vedic society must have seen different months for the ayanas.  Why is there no evidence like above on any other months as the duration of ayanas?

The 2nd most obvious reason (after the limited to and fro oscillation of the equinoxes) is that the Sun carries along with it the deities that are fixated in certain months of the ayana and season and do not keep travelling continuously like the western vernal equinox. Let me reproduce the forgotten deities of the Sun. Both Brahmanda Purana and Vayu Purana had given the same version. Here I am reproducing the Brahmanda Purana version (Ch 23) given in the context of the chariot of the Sun.

The months Madhu, Madhava etc refer to solar months whose equivalents are Mesha, Rishabha (Caitra, Vaishakha)


Note the seasons mentioned along with the solar months. The season is defined by the sun’s movement across five and a half stars, which is equal to two zodiacal signs.(Rig Jyothisha- 9)




Then comes the information on what they do to mankind.


Different sets of 14 divine entities residing in two specific months each, starting in sequence from Chaitra and spring season are responsible for nourishing Pitrus, devas and human beings. Can they shuffle their positions, say, those in vasanta season with sharad season which is what western concept of continuous precession of equinoxes would make them do? The Purana continues further:


The above is the fundamental belief of the Vedic society. The different entities residing in different months- seasons cause the rain, heat, happiness and despair. Their locations described above must dispel any doubts on the shifting zodiac, for they cannot discharge their duties in a shifting zodiac.

Equinoxes in backward movement is considered inauspicious.  Particularly when the Uttarayana moves in Ajaveethi (which is actually Dakshinayana in equilibrium position) i.e. in Sagittarius mankind suffers. History shows that Vedic religion started suffering only after Uttarayana started moving in Sagittarius (6th century onwards). So we are holding on to the median position of the Sun and its Devas for the propitiation of pitrus and deities. Vishuva is on the day of solar ingress into Aries and Uttarayana is when the sun enters Capricorn.

Once Uttarayana hits the 3rd degree mark of Sagittarius there will be a reversal in the movement of equinox and also in the fortunes of the Vedic society. Until then we will have heretics in the garb of supporters of Vedic system doing maximum damage to the cause of the Vedic Thought. Let us remain focused on what the texts say and continue with the age old custom of “Uttarayane, Hemanta ritau, Makara Māse....” in our oblations at the time of solar ingress in Capricorn.


29 comments:

R.Shankar said...

WOnderful article madam, can you pls let us know that time when the fortunes of Vedic society will change for the better?
Will we see it in our lifetimes?
Thank you
R.Shankar, Chennai

Jayasree Saranathan said...

Written in the last paragraph. By 2300 CE the equinox will cease to go backward and resume forward motion in Sagittarius. From then on revival of Vedic religion will take place.

BRAHM said...

Namaskaram. What is the corresponding date as per English calendar at which Utharayana Punyakalam in 2019.

Jayasree Saranathan said...

@ BRAHM

15th Jan

vishvAs vAsuki said...

The article, while well motivated, is sadly deeply flawed. Please consider the alternate viewpoint presented in this series of articles by a learned vaidika http://indiafacts.org/vedic-system-of-chronology/ .

Appropriate correction in vaidika time reckoning has a deep history in traditional hindu astronomical tradition. For example:

- "It was the Indian astronomy historian S. B. Dixit (also written Dikshit), who first proposed in 1896 that the zodiac should be oriented towards the star Spica (Citra in Sanskrti), in his important work History of Indian Astronomy (= Bharatiya Jyotih Shastra; bibliographical details further below). Dixit arrived at the conclusion that, given the prominence that Vedic religion gave to the cardinal points of the tropical year, the Indian calendar should be reformed and no longer be calculated relative to the sidereal, but to the tropical zodiac. "
- "during the solar eclipse of August 18, 1868 RA was able to demonstrate his predictions: He got the eclipse time correct with an error of 12 seconds using calculations done by his hand while the traditional astronomers performed dismally with a whopping 24 minute error. This had a strong effect and many traditional Hindus now switched over to his side. He then demolished the most recalcitrant traditional astronomers in a sadas of brāhmaṇa-s of the Dramiḍa country. Seeing this the Śaṃkara maṭha sent out a circular stating that the Vedic ritualists Venkateshvara Dikshita and Sundaresha Shrautin were correct in adopting modern theory and techniques for their rituals. His efforts were paralleled by those of Ketkar in Maharashtra and Venkatakrishna Raya in Andhra to get the Hindus to use modern astronomical calculations."


This has also been the private opinion of many learned seers (such as rangapriya svAmin).

Jayasree Saranathan said...

Thanks Mr VishvAs vAsuki for sharing your view here.

However I don't find anything in your view to negate the traditional view on Uttarayana. The eclipse timings are determined as they should appear on a given date. Though I am not conversant in the mathematics of Siddhantas, I know of two persons in Tamilnadu who have studied the Siddhantic methods of calculation and application of the same for any time (current time too). One of them who offered his expertise in the case against Karunanidhi's ruling on shifting Tamil New Year to Thai (zero degree Makara rashi) is an expert in calculating eclipse timings based on the Siddhantic rules. He doesn't talk about tropical position, but makes his calculations based on Siddhantic rules of rotation of the luminaries. He comes from a family of Panchanga writers who specialise in calculating eclipse timings. I was told that most panchangas in Tamil nadu get the eclipse timings from him.

Another person is Dr M.L. Raja who recently published a book on astronomical dating of Mahabharata war. He too used the traditional siddhantic rules to locate the planets. Unfortunately he didn't get the date right (40 years earlier than Kali Yuga start date). But that is not an excuse to reject the siddhantic rules. He is yet to fine tune his understanding.

As a practicing astrologer and a researcher in astro-meteorology for rainfall prediction, I find the sidereal astrology works well. There are lot of evidences. When it comes to planetary positions, we take up the current ayanamsha (Citrapaksha). When I want to check the Mahabharata events. I take up Surya Siddhanta ayanamsa (zero degree Aries). I have proved in my book that zero degree ayanamsa corroborates well with the planetary positions given in Mahabharata. So ayanamsa matters. If someone had been predicting eclipse in the year 2019 with the ayanamsa of 499 CE, he will get it wrong. That anomaly has been set right in the evidence you have given.

Apart from this there is no change in ayana and solstice positions as Punya kala for religious purposes. We don't rely on tropical positions is what I am telling in the blog-post. The ayanas oscillate to and fro with the median position at zero degree Aries. We stick to the median position when Uttarayana slips into dakshinayana (Dhanur rashi). Since it is not a continuously preceding ayana, we stick to the median position. This has been in practice which we find in times of kings when more knowledgeable people were there. This practice is the basis for why Abhijit was dropped from the zodiac which I have explained in the last chapter of my book.

Check the link for kindle Unlimited edition: http://jayasreesaranathan.blogspot.com/2019/10/my-book-myth-of-epoch-of-arundhati-of.html

I suggest viewing of my three videos to know more evidence and justification for the above blog post. The videos were originally intended to critique Mr Nilesh Oak's work.

1. Understanding seasons the Vedic way: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFLOwG8tPHM&t=464s

2. Understanding equinoxes the Vedic way: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qi6xc8HPfR4&t=836s

3. Identifying Dhruva (son of Uttanapada) in the constellation of Shishumara: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTbN2ovqVZE&t=748s



vishvAs vAsuki said...

Namaste smt Jayasree, With thanks for your kind consideration and reply:

- The conflation of uttarAyaNArambha with makara-sankramaNa is neither traditional nor vedic (At best, it can be said to be neo-traditional). It goes against the vedAnga-jyotiSha itself, which says about purely solar uttarAyaNa: "घर्मवृद्धिरपां प्रस्थ: क्षपाह्रास उदग्गतौ । दक्षिणेतौ विपर्यास: षण्मुहूर्त्ययनेन तु ।।" Further, while I agree that that the start of the new year as well as the luni-solar uttarAyaNa as per vedAnga jyotiSha and purANa-s is with mAgha, the current popular reckoning of adhika-mAsa-s is awry. For example, today is phAlguna mAsa already as per the kauNDinyAyana system (article series linked earlier). (Incidentally, I find your objection to the use of the term "luni-solar" prejudicial and vacuous - as they say, "rose by any other name smells as sweet".) This is the system which I incidentally follow during my daily sankalpa-s and rituals.
- For me- like other vaidika ritualists, the main utility of jyotiSha vedAnga is not astrology / phala jyotiSha - but the precise timing of shrauta, smArta, paurANika, Agamika rituals. As such, the ultimate guide to correct practice comes from the associated core pramANa. So, when bhagavAn Apastamba instructs us: "श्रवणापक्ष ओषधीषु जातासु हस्तेन पौर्णमास्यां वा ऽध्यायोपाकर्म", if we seriously want to follow what he said, we should focus on the seasonal shrAvaNa month when the herbs are born - and not some mid-rain time. Similarly, it is quite crazy and contrary to the shAstra-s to celebrate vasanta-panchamI in a month mistakenly called "mAgha". True tradition requires the careful ritualist to be closely in sync with Rta and Rtu.

Further, I must emphasize the primacy of observation when it comes to reckoning time correctly:
- While the practice has degenerated in the last hundred years or two, from my seems to have been the case that the jyotiSha type mistakes in nirNaya grantha-s did not automatically hold sway over all vaidika-s (who were quite decentralized) - each hamlet or village had a local jyotiSha expert who would make observations by placing shanku-s and constructing requisite instruments.
- People who blindly follow siddhAnta calculations without accounting for precession or season are violating the siddhAnta texts they supposedly revere! As an acquaintance who is an learned AhitAgni noted: "the whole purpose of jyautisha is to know beforehand what will be observed or to compute later on what would have been observed as the Surya Siddhanta 2-14 says: tattadgativaśān nityam yathā \*dṛktulyatām\* grahāḥ / prayānti tat pravakṣyāmi sphuṭīkaraṇam ādarāt //"

vishvAs vAsuki said...

A further comment regarding equinoxes and ayanAMsha-s.

The vAyupurANa verses you quote regarding equinoxes are: मेषान्ते च तुलान्ते च भास्करोदयतः स्मृताः । मुहूर्त्ता दश पञ्चैव अहोरात्रिश्च तावती ।। ५०.१९५ ।। कृत्तिकानां यदा सूर्यः प्रथमांशगतो भवेत् । विशाखानां तथा ज्ञेयश्चतुर्थांशे निशाकरः।। ५०.१९६ ।। विशाखायां यदा सूर्यश् चरतेंऽशं तृतीयकम्। तदा चन्द्रं विजानीयात् कृत्तिकाशिरसि स्थितम् ।। ५०.१९७ ।। विषुवन्तं तदा विद्यादेवमाहुर्महर्षयः। सूर्येण विषुवं विद्यात् कालं सोमेन लक्षयेत् ।। ५०.१९८ ।।

The second half of the first verse clearly tells us that during equinox, it is expected that both day and night are of equal length (15 muhUrta-s). This agrees with the definition spuriously referred to as "western". The remainder goes on to tell us how the exact timing for the sadAchAra conduct described in succeeding verses are to be timed: A careful ritualist should first adjust ayanAmsha so that the sun at equinox appears in kRttikA as described, and then await the time around the solar equinox day when moon is in vishAkhA (as per this ayanAMsha adjustment). This of course results in shifting the naxatras from the corresponding asterisms (eg. Pleidas). This choice of ayanAMsha incidentally corresponds to the ritual requirements of yajurveda portions (such as the puNyanaxatra section of taittirIya brAhmaNa).

Instead of this, if starts off with some other ayanAMsha from some other context and goes then to deduce "equinox" based on it - that would be wrong-headed - like latching the horses behind the cart. The ayanAMsha to be used in a particular ritual context should be determined from the vidhi-vAkya-s enjoining that particular ritual action.

Jayasree Saranathan said...

Namaste Sri vishvAs vAsuki,

// The conflation of uttarAyaNArambha with makara-sankramaNa is neither traditional nor vedic (At best, it can be said to be neo-traditional). //

Is Surya Siddhanta non-Vedic and neo- traditional for stating that Uttarayana starts on the entry of the sun into makara in the verse 14-9?

//It goes against the vedAnga-jyotiSha itself, which says about purely solar uttarAyaNa: "घर्मवृद्धिरपां प्रस्थ: क्षपाह्रास उदग्गतौ । दक्षिणेतौ विपर्यास: षण्मुहूर्त्ययनेन तु ।।" //

1. If this verse is to be followed verbatim, what is the logic in stating the median positions in many texts? Why didn’t they simply state to follow the true position of the sun to observe Uttarayana or Vishuva?

2. Why does Vayu Purana state the median position, Maximum extent position (as in Vedanga Jyothisha) and also to determine the time by equal day and night? Which of them is true? Why does it give all the three? Why doesn’t it stop with a simple, straight forward statement to follow the exact equinoctial day?

3. In fact Vayu Purana was anterior to Mahabharata / Kali yuga date going by the verse by Markandeya in Mahabharata that whatever he had stated on Time was already given in Vayu Purana. This means Vayu Purana was older than 5120 years BP. In the timeline of oscillating equinoxes, the recording of the maximum extent of Vishuva (sun in karttika 1st pada while moon in 4th pada of Vishakha) in Vayu Purana was possible 5400 years before Kali Yuga. I am not going into the date of Vayu Purana but wondering why Vayu Purana did not make any mention of Uttarayana- Arambha in the south of Makara that happened within that long period? Instead it classifies the Uttarayana into 2 veethis (Naga Veethi in Makara and Aja Veethi in Dhanush), why?

4. Even if it is assumed that precession was a continuous process, why is there no reference to Vishuva beyond 1st Pada of Krittika or Uttarayana beyond Dhanishtha? Why Dhanishtha is always regarded as the first? (in Brahmanda Purana quote above and in Mahabharata)

(continued)

Jayasree Saranathan said...

// Further, while I agree that that the start of the new year as well as the luni-solar uttarAyaNa as per vedAnga jyotiSha and purANa-s is with mAgha, the current popular reckoning of adhika-mAsa-s is awry. For example, today is phAlguna mAsa already as per the kauNDinyAyana system (article series linked earlier). (Incidentally, I find your objection to the use of the term "luni-solar" prejudicial and vacuous - as they say, "rose by any other name smells as sweet".) This is the system which I incidentally follow during my daily sankalpa-s and rituals.//

This statement reveals the obvious. Which system needs correction? Definitely not the one I / we follow in Tamilnadu having all the four calculations of time. The problem comes when all the four are not taken together. Therefore the rose does not smell sweet when even one of the four is left out.

We are running Dhanur mAsa and at the time of writing this the Sun is about to enter Purvashadha and we are going to start watching the sky and environment for noting the ‘pregnancy of clouds’ to determine the rainfall next year. This is working perfectly (sidereal) and the Sun is still in Dhanur rashi. In the Sankalpa done on Amavasya and eclipse, our men mentioned Dhanur mase / chaapa mase. We are very clear about Time as we use the four-system together.

// - For me- like other vaidika ritualists, the main utility of jyotiSha vedAnga is not astrology / phala jyotiSha - but the precise timing of shrauta, smArta, paurANika, Agamika rituals.//

Where did I say that Vedanga Jyothisha is astrology?

On the other hand it gives insights (principles too) on how to deduce the time for any given date of Uttarayana. I applied those principles to deduce the Mahabharata calendar having Magha Shukla Ashtami as the first day after Uttarayana in the 1st year of the 5 year Yuga. All the events were dated by me using that and they corroborated well with the internal evidences of Mahabharata. Those principles are valid even today, for any date of Uttarayana. But the Vedic society did not go backward of Makara but had frozen the date at Makar-Arambha, until the Vishuva reaches the median position is what is revealed in the deafly silence on Uttarayana at south of Makara.

// As such, the ultimate guide to correct practice comes from the associated core pramANa. So, when bhagavAn Apastamba instructs us: "श्रवणापक्ष ओषधीषु जातासु हस्तेन पौर्णमास्यां वा ऽध्यायोपाकर्म", if we seriously want to follow what he said, we should focus on the seasonal shrAvaNa month when the herbs are born - and not some mid-rain time.//

Depends on what a particular school thinks right and wants to follow. It is Bhadrapada Hasta in my region. Not comparable with Uttarayana issue.

// Similarly, it is quite crazy and contrary to the shAstra-s to celebrate vasanta-panchamI in a month mistakenly called "mAgha". True tradition requires the careful ritualist to be closely in sync with Rta and Rtu.//

Not in vogue in my place but depends on the school. Not comparable with Uttarayana issue.

(continued)

Jayasree Saranathan said...

// Further, I must emphasize the primacy of observation when it comes to reckoning time correctly:
- While the practice has degenerated in the last hundred years or two, from my seems to have been the case that the jyotiSha type mistakes in nirNaya grantha-s did not automatically hold sway over all vaidika-s (who were quite decentralized) - each hamlet or village had a local jyotiSha expert who would make observations by placing shanku-s and constructing requisite instruments.//

Too generalistic, not reflecting the reality. No Jyothisha expert decides this. In the Tamil Epic Silappadhikaram comes reference to the discussion between Samaya- kanakkar (experts in Time / Jyothisha) and Amaya-kanakkar (experts in rituals / Agamas) to decide the date of KAman festival. This trend is followed even today. Such discussion happened in the Maha Shivaratri date I mentioned in the article. It was decided that Maha Shivaratri should be followed by solar ingress into Pisces. Such discussion is going to come up in the upcoming year on Navaratri festival. Similarly in the case of Uttarayana in Dhanur rashi, the decision is not recent or new. It was made 1200 years ago as seen from the inscriptions and supportive evidence of median position in all the texts that talk about Time. Uttarayana as it happens now in Dakshinayana is not taken into reckoning. It is in the abode of Yama in the Natural / Universal zodiac.


//People who blindly follow siddhAnta calculations without accounting for precession or season are violating the siddhAnta texts they supposedly revere! //

I request you once again to watch my 3 videos. Purusha in Nakshatrani rupam is self manifest as seasons and facilitates in obtaining karma due to each one in whom HE is manifest. And He is seeing through his eyes (the Sun) with all the 14 sets of devatas (highlighted in the article above) aligning themselves with sidereal based seasons (Vedanga Jyothisha refers to seasons on the basis of sun’s movement in stars) to facilitate the obtainment of what is due. It is for this reason all great texts have a chapter on seasons. Seasons as generators of karma was recognized in ancient Tamil lands, in Tolkappiyam and all the sangam age texts. What they reveal is repeated in Rama's version on varsha and sharad seasons. The Purusha transfers through the stars to the seasons what is due to us. Watch the video from 46.50 minutes.

Understanding seasons the Vedic way: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFLOwG8tPHM&t=464s

// As an acquaintance who is an learned AhitAgni noted: "the whole purpose of jyautisha is to know beforehand what will be observed or to compute later on what would have been observed as the Surya Siddhanta 2-14 says: tattadgativaśān nityam yathā \*dṛktulyatām\* grahāḥ / prayānti tat pravakṣyāmi sphuṭīkaraṇam ādarāt //"

This is written in the context of planets. Tell this to the dating researchers who are picking out the planetary positions of the past based on the extrapolated current rate of and continuing precession.

(continued)

Jayasree Saranathan said...

// The vAyupurANa verses you quote regarding equinoxes are: मेषान्ते च तुलान्ते च भास्करोदयतः स्मृताः । मुहूर्त्ता दश पञ्चैव अहोरात्रिश्च तावती ।। ५०.१९५ ।। कृत्तिकानां यदा सूर्यः प्रथमांशगतो भवेत् । विशाखानां तथा ज्ञेयश्चतुर्थांशे निशाकरः।। ५०.१९६ ।। विशाखायां यदा सूर्यश् चरतेंऽशं तृतीयकम्। तदा चन्द्रं विजानीयात् कृत्तिकाशिरसि स्थितम् ।। ५०.१९७ ।। विषुवन्तं तदा विद्यादेवमाहुर्महर्षयः। सूर्येण विषुवं विद्यात् कालं सोमेन लक्षयेत् ।। ५०.१९८ ।।

The second half of the first verse clearly tells us that during equinox, it is expected that both day and night are of equal length (15 muhUrta-s). This agrees with the definition spuriously referred to as "western".//

My reply is already written as a question in the beginning numbered 2.

Let me reply to that question.

The same Vayu Purana tells about Suns movement in dhanur and makara rasi as Aja Veethi and Naga Veethi respectively. Further understanding of this comes from Brihat Samhita. Sun’s movement in Aja Veethi (Dhanur Rashi) starting from Moola is considered inauspicious as per Brihat Samhita (spoke about it in the video). From the version of Brihat samhita that Uttarayana starting before the sun reaches Makara Rashi and Dakshinayana starting before the sun reaches Kataka rashi causes hardships to the people, it is deduced that (1) the ayanas had not gone far off but oscillated only within 2 rashis and (2) such ayanarambhas were deliberately not observed.

// The remainder goes on to tell us how the exact timing for the sadAchAra conduct described in succeeding verses are to be timed: A careful ritualist should first adjust ayanAmsha so that the sun at equinox appears in kRttikA as described, and then await the time around the solar equinox day when moon is in vishAkhA (as per this ayanAMsha adjustment). This of course results in shifting the naxatras from the corresponding asterisms (eg. Pleidas). This choice of ayanAMsha incidentally corresponds to the ritual requirements of yajurveda portions (such as the puNyanaxatra section of taittirIya brAhmaNa).

Instead of this, if starts off with some other ayanAMsha from some other context and goes then to deduce "equinox" based on it - that would be wrong-headed - like latching the horses behind the cart. The ayanAMsha to be used in a particular ritual context should be determined from the vidhi-vAkya-s enjoining that particular ritual action.//

Let me refrain from replying to this. For the first time I am coming across a view that ayamasha is ‘adjusted’ to get the Sun appear in Krittika for doing rituals !!!! Remembering Gita verse 10-10. I am no one to correct you. Namaskaram.

vishvAs vAsuki said...

namaste smt jayashrI,

Just answering a couple of objections before signing off (given that you find the text-context-specific ayanAMsha selection view too strange to consider):

"1. If this verse is to be followed verbatim, what is the logic in stating the median positions in many texts? Why didn’t they simply state to follow the true position of the sun to observe Uttarayana or Vishuva? Why does Vayu Purana state the median position, Maximum extent position (as in Vedanga Jyothisha) and also to determine the time by equal day and night? Which of them is true? Why does it give all the three? Why doesn’t it stop with a simple, straight forward statement to follow the exact equinoctial day?"
-->

Various texts describe the equinoctial solar/ lunar position (I wouldn't call it "median") corresponding to the historical time period in which they were received/ revealed. The purANa-s or brAhmaNa-s are not in the business of specifying a "range" or "median". It is up to the intelligent use of jyotirvidyA to apply the appropriate corrections (by means of ayanAMsha) necessary to correct for precession-based divergences at a later date.


"Is Surya Siddhanta non-Vedic and neo- traditional for stating that Uttarayana starts on the entry of the sun into makara in the verse 14-9?"
Ditto with the above. Beyond a few centuries, sUrya siddhAnta does not adequatly provide for precession-related correction. Applies to makara-sankramaNa and uttarAyaNa too. It is no surprise that people naively applying its pronouncements regarding uttarAyaNArambha get absurd results, just as vAkya-panchAnga-s oft give erroneous results regarding graha-s (eg: around Jan 6, 2018 conjunction of Mars and Jupiter could be observed while they placed Mars still in 1st qtr about 1½° (three moon sizes) away.).

Jayasree Saranathan said...

Namaste Sri vishvAs vAsuki,

//Various texts describe the equinoctial solar/ lunar position (I wouldn't call it "median") corresponding to the historical time period in which they were received/ revealed.//

I am asking for a single evidence from the various texts on Uttarayana mentioned in Dakshinayana, i.e. south of Makara in Dhanur rashi, or anytime beyond Dhanishtha. The median position comes into relevance in to and fro oscillation of the equinoxes, the knowledge of which was given up by western influenced people in the last 100 years.

//The purANa-s or brAhmaNa-s are not in the business of specifying a "range" or "median". It is up to the intelligent use of jyotirvidyA to apply the appropriate corrections (by means of ayanAMsha) necessary to correct for precession-based divergences at a later date.//

The Brahmanas are not in the business of specifying a 'range' or 'median' but the Puranas are. One of the 5 lakshanas of Puranas is to state the concept of Time that is in done in context of description of Manvantras. Markandeya quoted these concepts from Vayu Purana. My above blog also brought to the notice of public all the concepts given in both Vayu and Brahmanda Purana. In that context I raised the question why they didn't just stop with saying - to note the equinoctial day. Why all the texts including these Puranas keep harping on the 'median' position, which one can understand only from Surya Siddhanta verse on 27 degree movement. I explained in my videos.

//Ditto with the above. Beyond a few centuries, sUrya siddhAnta does not adequatly provide for precession-related correction. Applies to makara-sankramaNa and uttarAyaNa too. It is no surprise that people naively applying its pronouncements regarding uttarAyaNArambha get absurd results, just as vAkya-panchAnga-s oft give erroneous results regarding graha-s (eg: around Jan 6, 2018 conjunction of Mars and Jupiter could be observed while they placed Mars still in 1st qtr about 1½° (three moon sizes) away.).//

Here we are not talking about precession related correction, but about the core concept. Surya Siddhanta version (3: 9 to 12) of the to and fro oscillation of the equinoxes for 27 degrees either side of the zero degree Aries (median) gives us better understanding of why the median position is always mentioned in the texts and why the version of Shishumara along with just 3 pole stars is given in the Puranas. That the pole stars also occur within the 54 degree span (27 + 27) that matches with Shishumara (Ursa Minor) identified with Vishnu's Paramam padam is explained in my video.

Precession related correction to planetary position is indeed done in our Pancangas, what we call "Thiruk kaNitha" (Drik Ganita) but the astrological concepts of prediction are the same. But this is not what this article is about. This article about the identification of the Uttarayana Punya kala (and at Vishuva) meant for tarpan and rituals, which cannot happen on a day not having connection with the Sun and the Moon. Since the Uttarayana of the current times occurs south of Makara which is considered inauspicious, (known from many evidences that I have given in my video), the median position is taken as Uttarayana punya kala and zero degree Aries is taken as Vishu. Ever since the slipping down backward off Makara started, the Veda Dharma has been under attack. It is unfortunate those who are expected to know the basics also subscribe to the views that hasten the attack.

vishvAs vAsuki said...

namaste shrImatI jayashrI,

"Why all the texts including these Puranas keep harping on the 'median' position, which one can understand only from Surya Siddhanta verse on 27 degree movement." ->
I am sorry - I must be missing somthing. *You* are superimposing the word "median" on the purANa-s, and the purANa-s themselves say no such thing. Please feel free to prove me wrong by producing a verifiable quote - preferably in the original - which uses a word meaning "median".

"I am asking for a single evidence from the various texts on Uttarayana mentioned in Dakshinayana, i.e. south of Makara in Dhanur rashi, or anytime beyond Dhanishtha." -> Certainly - भानुराश्लेषा अयनं मघा मे (shaunaka atharvaveda 19.7 nakShatra sUktam). Besides, there is implicit evidence for vishuva day sun being in kRttikA naxatra in some veda samhitas (eg. the one I just quoted starts its naxatra list with kRttikA) themselves, and in the ashvinI naxatra in others. This of course implies what you are fishing for. Also note: मैत्रायणीयोपनिषदि - "द्वादशात्मकं वत्सरमेतस्याग्नेयमर्धमर्धं वारुणं,  मघाद्यं श्रविष्ठार्धमाग्नेयं क्रमेणोत्क्रमेण सार्पाद्यं श्रविष्ठार्धान्तं सौम्यम्". Of course you may not have noticed this because many paurANika texts you're familiar with happened to be revealed to us at a time when uttarAyaNa was happening in makara.


" matches with Shishumara (Ursa Minor) " -> Oh that's another big misconception you have. I recalled seeing that in your video but did not want to get into it yet. Lots of evidence to point to Shishumara being Draco and pole star being thuban at the time vedic texts were revealed. (In fact I recite one every night from sva-shAkhA KYV - albeit looking at Polaris to correct for precession). The shift in polaris due to precession is in fact recorded in maitrAyaNIya upaniShat - "अथ किमेतैर्वान्यानां शोषणं महार्णवानां शिखरिणां प्रपतनं ध्रुवस्य प्रचलनं स्थानं वा तरूणां निमज्जनं पृथिव्याः स्थानादपसरणं ..."

vishvAs vAsuki said...

A clarification on my previous reply to your comment: "I am asking for a single evidence from the various texts on Uttarayana mentioned in Dakshinayana, i.e. south of Makara in Dhanur rashi, or anytime beyond Dhanishtha.".

I just realized that in my reply I provided evidence for uttarAyaNa beginning in maghA naxatra - which is not what you were seeking. Still, maghA is far away from current makara. And, I am not arguing for uttarAyaNArambha in a rAshi being mistakenly designated as "dhanuH". Rather, simple ayanAMsha correction will ensure that solstices and equinox will fall in the appropriate rAshi-s mentioned in the veda-s.

Jayasree Saranathan said...

Namaste Sri vishvAs vAsuki

//I am sorry - I must be missing somthing. *You* are superimposing the word "median" on the purANa-s, and the purANa-s themselves say no such thing. Please feel free to prove me wrong by producing a verifiable quote - preferably in the original - which uses a word meaning "median".//

Vishuva is the mid-point between two ayanarambhas. Rig Vedanga Jyothisha 31 and Yajur Vedanga Jyothisha 23 give rules for deducing the Vishuva on the basis of distance between two vishuvas and dividing by two. The result you are getting is 6 parvans and 3 tithis that falls at midpoint between two ayanarambha. I believe that ‘median’ refers to mid-point. RV J 33 further clarifies this by naming the tithi at which the Vishuva occurs.

For all the 5 years of the 5 year Yuga, the Vishuva tithi will be shifting but will be at midpoint of the ayanarambha tithis. When I applied the same principles to deduce Mahabharata calendar in my book, I found that Uttarayana started on the day after Maha Shivaratri in the 5th year (only) of the 5 year Yuga. Bottom-line is no one looked at tropical position of solstices and equinoxes.

The same logic is seen applied in locating Vishuva at the beginning of Aries wherever the texts say that Uttarayana starts at Makara and Dakshinayana at Kataka. The mid-point or median at zero degree Mesha is Vishu for all religious purposes ever since Uttarayana started slipping to Aja Veethi.

// Certainly - भानुराश्लेषा अयनं मघा मे (shaunaka atharvaveda 19.7 nakShatra sUktam). Besides, there is implicit evidence for vishuva day sun being in kRttikA naxatra in some veda samhitas (eg. the one I just quoted starts its naxatra list with kRttikA) themselves, and in the ashvinI naxatra in others. This of course implies what you are fishing for. Also note: मैत्रायणीयोपनिषदि - "द्वादशात्मकं वत्सरमेतस्याग्नेयमर्धमर्धं वारुणं, मघाद्यं श्रविष्ठार्धमाग्नेयं क्रमेणोत्क्रमेण सार्पाद्यं श्रविष्ठार्धान्तं सौम्यम्". Of course you may not have noticed this because many paurANika texts you're familiar with happened to be revealed to us at a time when uttarAyaNa was happening in makara.//

Let me begin with this // Of course you may not have noticed/ / How you are estimating / under-estimating someone without going through any of the material provided!!

Coming to the point, always the maximum eastern extent of Vishuva at Krittika is given and the median Uttarayana at Makara is given. I am not one to dismiss these as the time periods when those texts were composed, for, the texts are such that (Surya Siddhanta and Puranas) they have to stick to concepts and principles for computation (in Jyothisha Siddhantas) and not mention the time of composition. Only Siddhantas will give the time in mathematically derivable terms from the beginning of Kalpa. It is mandatory for Puranas to state the concepts.


(continued)

Jayasree Saranathan said...

Next, when will the ayana (Dakshinayana) start at Magha or at Aslesha (sarpa)?
Have you ever worked on it?

I have, but not on ayana at Magha or Aslesha. I worked on the fundamentals – a requirement I am trained at – that one has to know that, by knowing which everything of that will be known. I started working on the fundamental concept of how the equinoxes move. It gives me a limit but not an unlimited precession. I cross checked with the NCP (northern Pole star) for the limited oscillation of the equinox. I landed up at Shishumara with 3 NCP for three limits with interchangeable names in the past. The pole stars can never be sighted beyond the 54 degree arc. The next cross reference comes from Abhijit getting expunged only to be substituted with Krittika to make up for the 27 star zodiac. The results I am getting are

1. The zodiac had only 27 stars at any time. One cannot be deluded to believe in 28 star zodiac, though 28 stars are in use even today in Sapta Nadi cakra for rainfall prediction.

2. When Abhijit was part of the zodiac, the maximum extent of Dakshinayana went up to Magha 4th pada. The maximum limit of Uttarayana at that time was Dhanishtha 2nd pada. Even when Abhijit was dropped the maximum extent of Uttarayana went upto Dhanishtha 1st pada. That is the reason Dhanishtha is recognised as foremost among the stars – designated so by Brahma- by Markandeya in Mahabharata. Please read the last chapter of my book where I have worked on this. Available in Kindle Unlimited. https://www.amazon.in/MYTH-EPOCH-ARUNDHATI-NILESH-NILKANTH-ebook/dp/B07YVFNQLD/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_pl_foot_top?ie=UTF8

So any reference to ayanarambha at the star Magha must be about the time Abhijit was in the reckoning. I even deduced the date till when Abhijit was part of the zodiac. Herein another reference to a star at Vishuva is found. I will reply when you spot it in the texts and bring it here.

3. The reason for dropping Abhijit in that calculation shows why the Vedic society didn’t want to recognise a location at Aja Veethi, i.e. south of Makara.
All these and more are coming to be known when you grasp the fundamental concept and start working on it meticulously and impassionately. What do I mean by impassionately? I was not trying to fix up some verse or derive the meaning of some verse. I worked on the basic concept, and everything fell in place.

(continued)

Jayasree Saranathan said...

// Oh that's another big misconception you have. I recalled seeing that in your video but did not want to get into it yet. Lots of evidence to point to Shishumara being Draco and pole star being thuban at the time vedic texts were revealed. (In fact I recite one every night from sva-shAkhA KYV - albeit looking at Polaris to correct for precession). //

I have proved in my video why Draco is not Shishumara. You disprove my theory (Ursa Minor is Shishumara).

If you look at Polaris, you are indeed looking at Dhruva, son of Uttanapada.

// The shift in polaris due to precession is in fact recorded in maitrAyaNIya upaniShat - "अथ किमेतैर्वान्यानां शोषणं महार्णवानां शिखरिणां प्रपतनं ध्रुवस्य प्रचलनं स्थानं वा तरूणां निमज्जनं पृथिव्याः स्थानादपसरणं ..."//

When did I say that pole stars were not shifting? But I say that the shift is within 54 degrees, going by the limited to and fro oscillation of the equinoxes. Knowledge of this in the Vedic society is palpable right from the time Abhijit was dropped and Krittika was included. My above blog, comments and the three videos are all about that knowledge.

// I just realized that in my reply I provided evidence for uttarAyaNa beginning in maghA naxatra - which is not what you were seeking. Still, maghA is far away from current makara. And, I am not arguing for uttarAyaNArambha in a rAshi being mistakenly designated as "dhanuH". Rather, simple ayanAMsha correction will ensure that solstices and equinox will fall in the appropriate rAshi-s mentioned in the veda-s.//

Where does the verse say that Uttarayana began in Magha nakshatra?

Ayanamsha correction is being done or else we cannot get the true position of the planets. If someone wants to date a Vedic text that mentions the running ayana / vishuva position of the time of the text, then one must take the correct ayanamsa to date it. If someone living in 2020 does the ayanamsha ‘correction’ to get the uttarayana date of the text, so that he can do the Uttarayana homa, or pitru tarpan as per the text on that ‘date’ in the current times, I would prefer to quote Nammazhwar verse that says, that the knowledge one gets is as per one’s destiny!

vishvAs vAsuki said...

namaste shrImatI jayashrI,

Firstly, I share your admiration for nammaaLvAr's quote :-).

Your use of the term "median" in the sense of vishuva being the midpoint between the two ayanArambha-s is perfectly acceptable. However, I cannot fathom what you mean by the use of medium in - say - "median Uttarayana ". Can you clarify?

Also, referring to your statement "from the time Abhijit was dropped and Krittika was included.": I don't know of a time when kRttikA was not in the naxatra list. It is there in the vedas. What "inclusion" are you talking about?

Also, given the objective fact that Makara Sankramana has been slipping away from astronomical uttarAyaNa - from Dec 21 2k years ago through Dec 31 in 1000 AD to June after a few thousand years (so as to actually coincide with astronomical dakshinAyana). I am curious if, as the great upholder of "tradition" and as one destined to have genuine knowledge (vide nammALvAr), you'd recommend hindus to keep doing uttarAyaNa homa during makara sankramaNa even then :-)?

Jayasree Saranathan said...

Namaste Sri vishvAs vAsuki ji,

//Firstly, I share your admiration for nammaaLvAr's quote :-).//

Even if you don’t, I, belonging to Ramanuja Sampradaya , am destined to grow up imbibing the knowledge of Azhvars who directed us to listen to the ‘Munnor mozhintha muRai’ (முன்னோர் மொழிந்த முறை) ways of our ancestors and sages. Once I spread out my wings looking at new areas of knowledge, I am finding more evidences in support of those ways. The above blog is one such evidence.

What Acharya Ramanuja followed continues to be followed by his SimhAsanAdhipati-s whose footsteps we follow even today, be it in recognising Uttrayana Punya kAla in Makara sankramana or any other religious activity. For, we know that the slipping down of Uttarayana is not a permanent event, it will come back. So maintain the ‘median’ position. Vishnu’s foot cannot keep moving up and down. It is firmly fixed at Makara sankramana with His next step firmly at Mesha sankramana Vishu!

// Your use of the term "median" in the sense of vishuva being the midpoint between the two ayanArambha-s is perfectly acceptable. However, I cannot fathom what you mean by the use of medium in - say - "median Uttarayana ". Can you clarify?//

If the equinoxes are oscillating, can the solstices remain fixed at a point? They too oscillate, don’t they? Within the two limits of the oscillation, what do you call the mid-point? It is ‘median’ Uttarayana at Makara and ‘median’ Dakshinayana at Kataka. Simple logic in the simple English I know.

// Also, referring to your statement "from the time Abhijit was dropped and Krittika was included.": I don't know of a time when kRttikA was not in the naxatra list. It is there in the vedas. What "inclusion" are you talking about?//

Already wrote “I will reply when you spot it in the texts and bring it here.”
Read my ebook to know about that “inclusion” or just browse Mahabharata for Markandeya’s version.

// Also, given the objective fact that Makara Sankramana has been slipping away from astronomical uttarAyaNa - from Dec 21 2k years ago through Dec 31 in 1000 AD to June after a few thousand years (so as to actually coincide with astronomical dakshinAyana). //

Correction: Only astronomical Uttarayana is slipping away from Makara sankramana.

//I am curious if, as the great upholder of "tradition" and as one destined to have genuine knowledge (vide nammALvAr), you'd recommend hindus to keep doing uttarAyaNa homa during makara sankramaNa even then :-)?//

My reply is the same as in the first reply above. I do what was recommended to me and my efforts are to tell the world that there is a rationale in what they recommended to us.

By the by, you have not replied to my question “Where does the verse say that Uttarayana began in Magha nakshatra?”



vishvAs vAsuki said...

namaste shrI jayashrI,

> "If the equinoxes are oscillating, can the solstices remain fixed at a point? They too oscillate, don’t they? Within the two limits of the oscillation, what do you call the mid-point? It is ‘median’ Uttarayana at Makara and ‘median’ Dakshinayana at Kataka. Simple logic in the simple English I know. "

Ok, that's all the more confusing. Because EVERY point in the zodiac circle will cyclically host equinox and solstices. Just as every point in the circumference of a circle can be termed a "mid point" of the arc. It makes no sense to single out one (beginning of makara rAshi) as being a "median" uttarAyaNArambha point. What am I missing here?

> What Acharya Ramanuja followed continues to be followed by his SimhAsanAdhipati-s

May I know which particular SimhAsanAdhipati you follow? Have you actually discussed the matter with them? Because I know some yati-s (eg. shrI rangapriya svAmI http://srirangapriya.com/ ) definitely understood and preferred correction.

> Already wrote “I will reply when you spot it in the texts and bring it here.”

I already pointed out the list in shaunaka atharva veda, and you will find it in taittirIya brAhmaNa, naxatra sUkta in Rg veda samhitA etc.. I hope you don't expect me to "bring them" to your doorstep - you can verify yourself online. (Let me know if you have any trouble locating them)

> Read my ebook to know about that “inclusion” or just browse Mahabharata for Markandeya’s version.

Sorry - Amazon's free sample does not include your section on inclusion of kRttika. If you either share the appropriate section online or point to the precise location in the mahAbhArata text (say in the BORI edition available at http://bombay.indology.info/mahabharata/text/UD/ ), I will take a look.

> By the by, you have not replied to my question “Where does the verse say that Uttarayana began in Magha nakshatra?”

The vAkya-s I quoted were : भानुराश्लेषा अयनं मघा मे (shaunaka atharvaveda 19.7 nakShatra sUktam) and : मैत्रायणीयोपनिषदि - "द्वादशात्मकं वत्सरमेतस्याग्नेयमर्धमर्धं वारुणं, मघाद्यं श्रविष्ठार्धमाग्नेयं क्रमेणोत्क्रमेण सार्पाद्यं श्रविष्ठार्धान्तं सौम्यम्". The latter can easily be understood as naxatra-s spanning uttarAyaNa, and the former while literally meaning "In maghA my ayana", can be taken to imply (by means of vyangyArtha dhvani) a certain stellar ayana as well. Besides I've already stated how naxatra lists start with the equinotical naxatra - in this case kRttika, leading to maghA being uttarAyaNArambha. But since I realized you (unlike "less" endowed scholars like the patriot BG Tilak) won't care for such reasoning, I did not sweat it.

Jayasree Saranathan said...

Namaste Sri vishvAs vAsuki ji,

//Ok, that's all the more confusing. Because EVERY point in the zodiac circle will cyclically host equinox and solstices. Just as every point in the circumference of a circle can be termed a "mid point" of the arc. It makes no sense to single out one (beginning of makara rAshi) as being a "median" uttarAyaNArambha point. What am I missing here?//

You are missing the point that it is to and fro oscillation within 54 degrees and not a 360 degree rotation.

//May I know which particular SimhAsanAdhipati you follow? Have you actually discussed the matter with them? Because I know some yati-s (eg. shrI rangapriya svAmI http://srirangapriya.com/ ) definitely understood and preferred correction.//

I belong to Kandhadai (Appan / Annan). People like yourself are confusing others with the western concept of 360 degree rotation of the equinoxes. Please stop doing that. Continuing precession is not the last word as we have enough evidence for to and fro oscillation for which I have given many evidences in the videos.

(continued)

Jayasree Saranathan said...

//I already pointed out the list in shaunaka atharva veda, and you will find it in taittirIya brAhmaNa, naxatra sUkta in Rg veda samhitA etc.. I hope you don't expect me to "bring them" to your doorstep - you can verify yourself online. (Let me know if you have any trouble locating them)//

Solstice at Magha happened when Abhijit was part of the zodiac before Krittika was included. I will come to the Krittika part later in this comment. Now calculate the distance from Dhanishtha to Magha or Magha to Dhanishtha in the zodiac of 27 stars with Abhijit following Uttrashadha and Rohini next to Bharani (Krittika was not included then)

The distance between 2 ayanas = 6 signs
We have to calculate in pada-s as the ayanarambha is given as mid of a star.
1 sign = 9 pada
6 sings = 9 x 6 = 54 pada.

Suppose Uttarayana starts at midpoint of Dhanishtha (at the end of 2nd pada),
Uttarayana goes on =

Dhanishtha 3,4 + Satabhishak 4 pada +Purvabhadrapada 4 pada + Uttrabhadrapada 4 pada + Revati 4 pada +Aswini 4 pada + Bharani 4 pada + Rohini 4 pada + Mrigashirsha 4 pada + Arudra 4 pada + Punarvasu 4 pada + Pushya 4 pada + Aslesha 4 pada + Magha 4 pada = 54 pada.

If Uttarayana occurs at the end of 2nd pada of Dhanishtha, Dakshinayana will begin at the 4th Pada of Magha. In this configuration, Vishuva would occur at Rohini 1st pada. So any reference to ayanarambha at Magha could have happened at a time Abhijit was part of 27 stars. That is the deduction.

The maximum extent of Uttarayana is Dhanishtha only. Brahma created Dhanishtha and Rohini to make it complete, so says Markandeya whom I often quote from Mahabharata (3-219 – 10)

dhaniṣṭhādis tadā kālo brahmaṇā parinirmitaḥ
rohiṇyādyo 'bhavat pūrvam evaṃ saṃkhyā samābhavat

After reaching the maximum extent at Dhanishtha 2nd pada, the ayana moves backward. Subsequently Dakshinayana moved back from Magha to Aslesha. That is the import of the verse you quoted.

Here I noted the other star of Vishuva (Rohini) which I wanted you to give me. Another verse pertaining to that is quoted by many, including Dr Subhash Kak.

// Sorry - Amazon's free sample does not include your section on inclusion of kRttika. If you either share the appropriate section online or point to the precise location in the mahAbhArata text (say in the BORI edition available at http://bombay.indology.info/mahabharata/text/UD/ ), I will take a look.//

The entire verse from Mahabharata is this: (3-219 – 8 to 11)

abhijit spardhamānā tu rohiṇyā kanyasī svasā
icchantī jyeṣṭhatāṃ devī tapas taptuṃ vanaṃ gatā
tatra mūḍho 'smi bhadraṃ te nakṣatraṃ gaganāc cyutam
kālaṃ tv imaṃ paraṃ skanda brahmaṇā saha cintaya
dhaniṣṭhādis tadā kālo brahmaṇā parinirmitaḥ
rohiṇyādyo 'bhavat pūrvam evaṃ saṃkhyā samābhavat
evam ukte tu śakreṇa trividaṃ kṛttikā gatāḥ
nakṣatraṃ śakaṭākāraṃ bhāti tad vahni daivatam.

Abhijit was substituted by Krittika. Other details are in my book in which I have given the date of beginning of first Homa done by none other than Skanda. He was the initiator of Vedic Homa culture.

So any verse on Krittika at Vishuva had come into existence after Abhijit was dropped, and after the date of Skanda which I have established in the book.

(continued)

Jayasree Saranathan said...

// The vAkya-s I quoted were : भानुराश्लेषा अयनं मघा मे (shaunaka atharvaveda 19.7 nakShatra sUktam) and : मैत्रायणीयोपनिषदि - "द्वादशात्मकं वत्सरमेतस्याग्नेयमर्धमर्धं वारुणं, मघाद्यं श्रविष्ठार्धमाग्नेयं क्रमेणोत्क्रमेण सार्पाद्यं श्रविष्ठार्धान्तं सौम्यम्". The latter can easily be understood as naxatra-s spanning uttarAyaNa, and the former while literally meaning "In maghA my ayana", can be taken to imply (by means of vyangyArtha dhvani) a certain stellar ayana as well.//

For Shaunaka AV I have given the explanation above.
Now for the Maitrayani verse you give your translation, I will tell what it means.

//Besides I've already stated how naxatra lists start with the equinotical naxatra - in this case kRttika, leading to maghA being uttarAyaNArambha. But since I realized you (unlike "less" endowed scholars like the patriot BG Tilak) won't care for such reasoning, I did not sweat it.//

For Uttarayana to start at Magha, you don’t need a 360 degree precession circle. Such an occurrence can happen in this earth itself. Need I tell where?

vishvAs vAsuki said...

namaste shrImatI jayashrI,

> You are missing the point that it is to and fro oscillation within 54 degrees and not a 360 degree rotation.

I am surprised and disappointed that at the above. The above statement shows a lack of understanding of physics. Have you ever spun a top and observed the precession it shows? Likely not given your gender - but please do. Also take a look at http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/top.html and videos which show up for the topic "gyroscopic precession". The idea that the spinning earth's axis oscillattes to and fro is impossible according to our current understanding of physics. Yes, physics is same for everyone - shrIvaiShNava-s and mlechCha-s alike - and you don't live in a separate universe.

The idea that the spinning earth's axis oscillattes to and fro (called trepidation), as proposed by medieval texts to explain precession of equinox belongs in the dustbin of history, among the outdated physical models - like flat earth, geocentrism and so on. Texts such as Suryasiddhanta and the astronomical section of nArada purANa were advanced for their day, but science and understanding of the physical reality has advanced far since then. I have already quoted numerous examples of siddhAntik calculations applied to the present day going wrong in previous messages - quoting eclipse timing errors and missed graha-conjunctions. If despite all this you insist on pretending that it accurately describes physical reality, I feel sorry for you and encourage you to understand physics better.

> I belong to Kandhadai (Appan / Annan). People like yourself are confusing others with the western concept of 360 degree rotation of the equinoxes. Please stop doing that.
:-) "simhAsanAdhipati-s" or other yati-s you claim to represent are hardly duds. They have a brain of their own and a good one at that - they are not to be so easily misled in a topic of interest to them. Given your response, I am wondering if you have actually spoken to your AchArya and solicited his private opinion on the matter. Unless you are afraid of discovering that you were wrong about representing "rAmAnuja's lineage" and "simhAsanAdhipati-s", you should ask his opinion on the difference and connection between uttarAyaNArambha and makarasankramaNa (preferably without imposing your own views, objections and constraints).

I have responses to your kRttikA-inclusion claims, but there is no point discussing that unless the above is resolved.

Jayasree Saranathan said...

Namaste Sri vishvAs vAsuki ji,

//I am surprised and disappointed that at the above. The above statement shows a lack of understanding of physics. Have you ever spun a top and observed the precession it shows?...... If despite all this you insist on pretending that it accurately describes physical reality, I feel sorry for you and encourage you to understand physics better.//

Is it? How naive I am, for not to have understood physics, or spun a top or read about the gyroscopic precession – but daring enough to write – or is it blabber? – about precession!!!!!!

So be it. Think whatever you want, for, I know what you don’t know and also know that you don’t know what I know.

The only line worthy of a response is this //The idea that the spinning earth's axis oscillattes to and fro is impossible according to our current understanding of physics.//

“According to our current understanding of physics”

Yes. Think of the theories that were current in the past, offering the best solutions at those times, but had to be given up with newer understanding of physics.

There was a time “aether theories” were current and thought to offer the best solution to how the electromagnetic waves travel across space. But they were given up with emerging revelations.

There was a time the physicists thought that they had figured out everything of physics. But then Nature threw a curve ball in the form of anomalous precession of Mercury. In order to explain this, a whole new branch of physics had to be invented. We call it General Relativity!

The next curve ball is due in 300 years from now when ‘our current understanding of physics’ of precession will have to be rewritten. A Nobel is due to the one who gets hold of it before that time, so said I in the video. And I gave the inputs too, where to look for from my ‘traditional’ and obsolete knowledge of the Vedic society that you consign to the dustbin of history.

The current theory is that precession is influenced by several factors of which the influence of the sun and the moon are paramount in addition to changes in mass distribution on the surface of the earth. There is one more about which not much research had happened, but having a decisive role in influencing the rotational dynamics of the earth. My input from ‘tradition’ does speak about a role for the sun and the moon and other celestial bodies as well, but they are secondary to this internal dynamics revealed by tradition and immortalised variously in my Vedic society.

The simplistic idea of it is found in Tanjore tilting doll which when I pointed out to a physicist, was worked out by him, making him concede that the same principle has a high rate of relevance in to and fro oscillation.

Further on, when I discussed this with an astro dynamicist with a PhD (AAA) from Purdue, he conceded that the input I pointed out from ‘tradition’ is possible but not yet in the reckoning of the models on precession and conceded that we have not yet understood the internal dynamics of our own earth compared to how much we know of space.

With all these in mind I wrote earlier to you “Continuing precession is not the last word”. With newer understanding of internal dynamics of the earth, a newer branch of rotational dynamics is going to be born. Shown the evidences in the two videos and certain people to whom it matters, have taken note of them.

(continued)

Jayasree Saranathan said...

// I have already quoted numerous examples of siddhAntik calculations applied to the present day going wrong in previous messages - quoting eclipse timing errors and missed graha-conjunctions.//

They don’t disprove to and fro oscillation of the equinoxes within 54 degree arc.

//"simhAsanAdhipati-s" or other yati-s you claim to represent are hardly duds. "simhAsanAdhipati-s" or other yati-s you claim to represent are hardly duds. They have a brain of their own and a good one at that - they are not to be so easily misled in a topic of interest to them. Given your response, I am wondering if you have actually spoken to your AchArya and solicited his private opinion on the matter. Unless you are afraid of discovering that you were wrong about representing "rAmAnuja's lineage" and "simhAsanAdhipati-s", you should ask his opinion on the difference and connection between uttarAyaNArambha and makarasankramaNa (preferably without imposing your own views, objections and constraints).//

None of them teach us to over-rule or trespass tradition. When met with Aryan-theorists like you, they politely nod their heads and see you off. I know what they think about Aryan theorists and their urge to impose ‘reformed’ calendars. I earn the admiration of Acharyas and scholars for validating tradition. I had evidence cum experience as recent as yesterday, but prefer to maintain humility.

I don’t have to impose my views on the Acharyas. It’s enough to show them that Kali Yuga date would get messed up if computed with continuing precession. My next book that I am working on currently has a chapter on this (to and fro oscillation evidence in Kali Yuga date) and it is going to be vetted by two reputed Acharyas who were researchers in their Purvashrama. That book will give clarity to anyone confused by you and the likes of you.

//I have responses to your kRttikA-inclusion claims, but there is no point discussing that unless the above is resolved.//

While your word by word translation of Maitrayani verse is yet to be given how can I expect you to give your response to Krittika inclusion? As written earlier –by knowing which everything of that will be known – I find your reference to Kaushitaki Brahmana verses in your recent tweets also falling in place with the basic concept, and not in the way explained by you.

Samarth M. Thorat said...

Asking for the conclusion.
Suppose I want to do Homam on 10 January.
For Sankalpa, What should I say ?
Uttarayane or Dakshinayane ?