Some of the responses from the other side do raise questions on the real intention of why they are meddling up with Vedic astrology and the Sruti texts. Is it just inter-cultural interest or the irritation that Indians claim a far longer history? (Quote Mr Deiter :- Now, when Indians tell us that the Mahabharata war occurred e.g. in 3139 BCE and the Epic was composed shortly thereafter, then Western science has the unpleasant quirk that it wants to see proof, and also adequate explanations for facts that are in contradiction with this date.). This gives a déjà vu feeling of Max Muller who wrote to his wife in 1866 that
"The translation of the Veda will hereafter tell to a great extent on the fate of India and on the growth of millions of souls in that country. It is the root of their religion, and to show them what the root is, I feel sure, is the only way of uprooting all that has sprung from it during the last 3000 years"
Source:- Müller, Georgina, The Life and Letters of Right Honorable Friedrich Max Müller, 2 vols. London: Longman, 1902.
What we hear from the Westerners in this mail-chain and their Gurus in David Pingree or anyone is no different from the above statement of Muller. So I decided to re-arrange my articles and start from this.
If their obsession is with historical proof, today's researchers from different disciplines have already started identifying India as a former incubator for mankind from where people spread to other parts of the world. The ASI-ANI genetic research is one and the recent research on connection between Indians, Australians, Chinese and Native Americans is another. Read it here: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2262843/Migrants-India-settled-Australia-4-000-years-ago-Captain-Cooks-arrival-took-dingos-them.html
How this interaction could have happened has been briefly written by me in this blog
http://jayasreesaranathan.blogspot.in/2013/01/asians-indians-chinese-shared-same.html
I can give proofs for each of the ideas I have written in that article.
India has served as an incubator for human beings to stay put for thousands of years in the same place which helped in developing a distinct culture of their own having an indigenous stamp. Otherwise it is not possible for a billion people to have grown in this small country. China is another country and their roots further go into Sundaland (Indonesian archipelago) which was a highland 20,000 years ago.
(Graham Hancock's map based on Inundation maps and sea level data furnished by Glenn Milne)
It is known that mankind had flourished only in regions close to the Equator and that puts the Tamil texts a valuable source for identifying the now submerged land links between the present borders of India, Sundaland and Africa.
All the claims of the opponents on astrology will be demolished if we ask these simple questions.
(1) Where can the 30 degree equal division of the Zodiac be observed? In Athens or in the tropics? The 30 degree division is the result of observational astronomy which is possible only to people near the equator or within the Tropical latitudes. For people living in farther latitudes where the day and night are NOT almost equal for most part of the year, it is impossible to conceive the 12 part equal division of the zodiac by themselves or by their own observation. If such an idea is found with them, the only way they could have got it is to have come to the tropics and observed (even then it would not be useful once they go back to their regions) or learnt it from the people of the tropics who are better placed to have conceived the idea.
(2) Where can the hora division as 30+30 naazhikai / nadika / ghatis for a day become possible? It is possible only where the ahas and rathri are almost equal in length. This can happen only near the equator or within the tropical region and not in Athens where there is a huge difference between the day and night for many months. This division and conceptualisation of Hora can happen only through observation and there is absolutely no way that people in the north of Tropic of Cancer had conceived it.
(3) If a community (of Rishis ) is able to observe the stars and calculate their extent by sheer observation from the ground, doesn't it sound absurd to say that they did not know the knowledge of Planets? Don't these critics think that observation of planets is easier than the observation of the stars which they did in various ways? Can anyone who has specialised in observing stars be found wanting in observing the planets? How sophisticated the knowledge of the stars must have been compared to the knowledge of the planets? But the Vedic rishis did not bother to glorify the planets in their Riks mainly because Stars are the manifestation of Parama Purusha. Parama Purusha has NakshataNi rUpam. But what are these planets? They are mere subsidiaries of the Parthyaksha Purusha viz the Sun. The stars are self illuminating Devas whereas the planets depend on the sun for their light and existence. That is why in their compositions, the rishis directly addressed the Devathas of the stars and even identified them by the names of the Devathas. It is the Devathas that make things happen.
(4) In Hindu philosophy the Ultimate Brahman is called as the Common Cause and is compared to the Sun or the rains. As a common cause, the Brahman pours rain everywhere; the jIvatmas (we) are like the seeds that are benefited by the rain and triggered to sprout as per our composition based on the individual cause as determined by prarabdha karma. The individual cause are manifest by the planets, but can be manipulated if the Common cause comes to help in time – like timely and sufficient rains. That is why the star pada of the planets get importance in Vedic astrology. The core idea is re-birth. Only a society which believes in re-birth could have created astrology with its four components of signs, bhavas, planets and stars. Any other society which does not believe in re-birth and past karma could not have conceived phalitha Jyotyhisha. When you say that something is going to happen in future, how do you say that without a past cause? The assumption of Prarabdha is there in Phalitha Jyothisha. If Greeks believe that they created Phalitha Jyothisha, then it means that their progenitors had lived in or interacted with Vedic society to have got this idea. Not the other way round.
(5) The above explanations that Vedic astrology and Vedantha go hand in hand. They are inseparable. This is made out in the very first few verses of the Rig and Yajusha Jyothisha that it is for doing yajnas this Kaala gyaanam is being told. Yajnas for whom? For the Parama Purursha who is seen as various nakshatras. Where is the place for planets in this set-up? Planets have a place only as Gruhas or Paathram where offerings are made in the grand scheme of worship of Nakshatra Devathas or Purusha. What is offered is offered not to the physical entity as planet but to their inner Devathas and sub-devathas similar to how offerings are made to Nakshatra Devathas. This concept can be understood by quoting what we are. Are we the body or the Jiva inside? I am Jayasree now, but when I die people would say Jayasree is gone. So I am not my body. Whatever is done to my body is actually done to something in myself. The same thing with planets. The mention of planetary devathas is indication of the knowledge of the physical entities of the planets. This knowledge of the inner self of the planets could not have developed without the knowledge of the planets as physical entities.
(6) This knowledge is characterised as Vedic astrology – the Vedic prefix is because, as Mr Ramanathan told in his write-up – there is Shishtachara. (1) The connection to a tradition of Vedic rishis makes this astrology Vedic. There are 18 Jyothish Pravarthakas mentioned in Kashyapa Samhita, Narada Samhita and Parashara Hora shastra (given at the end of this article). These authors' names themselves are found mentioned in these samhithas. That does not make the books bogus or inaccurate. These are all schools such as Kasyapa, Narada and Parashara schools of astrology. These rishis had lived very long ago, but their tradition had continued through the system of disciples. The disciples continue the tradition and school. This had continued for generations. This explains why the same book is available from different places with or without certain verses. In course of time they have recorded the names of their respective teachers in the list of Jyothish Pravarthakas. The purpose of re-writing is not to re-do or change some ideas. The reason is simple that in those days these books were written in palm leaves whose life is 300 years at the most. They have to be copied into fresh leaves before they become soiled. In the course of re-writing them, suppose a need was there to record the then existing astronomical features, they had done so. This has given rise to the opinion that these manuscripts were later creations. But the fact is that it is a long chain of generations from the past. A proof for this can be had from the Colonial records of the Education system when the British planned to introduce McCauley's system in the 18th century. The records show that a separate class of students were there whose main work was to copy the old manuscripts in new palm leaves. The British called them as "writer caste" or "scribes" caste They were called as "Calani"or "kalani" – those who use Kalam – the Tamil word for pen. This term must have been in apabrahmsa (stunted Tamil) also some 2000 years ago. The Jews were Calanis or Kalanians who came from India according to Aristotle. (In his "History of the Jews", the Jewish scholar and theologian Flavius Josephus (37 – 100 A.D.), wrote that the Greek philosopher Aristotle had said: "…These Jews are derived from the Indian philosophers; they are named by the Indians Calani." (Book I:22.). Clearchus of Soli wrote, "The Jews descend from the philosophers of India. The philosophers are called in India Calanians and in Syria Jews. The name of their capital is very difficult to pronounce. It is called 'Jerusalem.'"). The Nadi schools of different Siddhas also had flourished till 18th century in Tamilnadu. Certain references in the names of places make us think that some of them have come up after 1000 AD. But that does not diminish their status as the Nadi manuscript of such and such a Siddha. The aphorisms and concepts were given by the Siddhas in an undated past and they were continued to be taught in their schools. Adherence to these concepts of that Siddha make them his creation, though there is a chance that some of them were written by the disciples. This is made out from some manuscripts which appear as case studies where the conversation between the teacher and the disciple over some features of the horoscope are found mentioned.
(7) (2)This is Vedic astrology because the Vedic stars and entities are followed in this. (3) This is Vedic astrology because Vedic yajnas and samskaras like marriages are done at the auspicious time identified by this astrology. All these 3 features are not there with astrology practiced by other communities of the world which make them non-Vedic. Even Jain astrology was not considered as Vedic though Surya Pragnapti mentions the uttarayana beginning in Abhijit nakshatra. Exception is Yavanacharya mentioned as one of the 18 Jyothish Pravarthakas in all the three books I mentioned above. His presence in the list shows that he fulfilled all the three requirements for a Vedic astrologer. Perhaps his inclusion in the list was a matter of debate in those days which made Varahamihiara to infer that he rose to the level of a Vedic rishi and was treated as a rishi. That made him a progenitor of Vedic astrology. No other Mleccha – particularly Maya was considered as a Vedic Rishi or a progenitor of Vedic astrology.
(8) There is record of Mayan, the Vastu expert as being popular, but there is no school of Mayan astrology in ancient India. Though Maya was remembered by Varahamihira, Bhattotpala and Meenaraja, there was no school of Mayan astrology in India and he was not considered as a Jyothish Pravarthaka. In Mayamatham, at many places Mayan attributes his rules and aphorisms to rishis, and this confirms that Mayan was not considered as a progenitor of even the Vastu shastra. But he was known for mechanical objects and the articles that come under YAna category. He was Asura or Danava and his acceptance into the Vedic society could become possible only after Krishna suggested that he build a mansion for the Pandavas. He did this in gratitude for being rescued from the fire in the Khandava vana by Arjuna. Local architects must have assisted him in the construction because there is a reference in the 2nd century AD Tamil work Silappadhikaram that in return for the assistance done by the architects and sculptors in an ancient time, Maya taught them his knowledge. Using that knowledge the sculptors of Magada, Vajra and Avanti made beautiful decorative entrances, arches and such other things – some of which the Cholan King Karikala (1st century AD) got as gifts during his northern expedition. They were displayed in PumpukAr during the Indra festival. The Mayan architecture spread throughout India including Tamilnadu. The design of the market place of PumpukAr described in Silappadhikaram chapter 5 is the same as the illustration one finds in Mayamatham, translated by Bruno Dagens (his teacher Pandit N.R. Bhatt) as figure 8 in the list of illustrations. Madurai and Vanji in Chera nadu (today's Kerala) had such well laid structures of town planning with an underground water drainage system which is described as huge enough for an elephant to walk. This reminds me of the Indus drainage path in the Great Bath of Mohenjadaro.
Why I have to tell these things here is that Mr Deiter thinks that years of antiquity of India such as 3000+ BC make them quirk and ask for proofs. The proofs are plenty and coming up more nowadays. But they are looking for proofs elsewhere (in Sruti texts and astrology) and not in solid archaeological or genetic areas.
(9) Krishna's antiquity is not a myth as we still follow the year-month-day-nakshatra etc tradition starting from Kaliyuga (which started when Krishna exited) in sankalpa mantras. Nowhere in the world can we find such a continuing tradition of astronomical records in daily use. To prove that this tradition was not introduced sometime in the course of the last 2000 years, let me point out that the year followed in Tamilnadu is not the same as what is followed in North India. The current year (samvatsara) is Vijaya in Tamilnadu whereas it is Krodhi in North India. Why this difference of 12 years is a question. This is an area of research. A probable answer is that North India continued with the existing samvatsara when Kaliyuga started and Tamilnadu reverted back to the first year of the 60 year cycle.
(10)The proof of Krishna is in marine archaeological works conducted in Dwaraka. The date attributed is 1500 BC. This confuses researchers and had perhaps led to the belief that the traditional Kali yuga dates were wrong. No, I always think that if something looks intriguing or non-conforming to the traditional system of practices, keep searching more and deep, you would get the truth. This is not just the result of my belief but because the people in my country until a generation or so ago, did not sway from the traditional ways nor did they tamper with anything. If something has gone wrong, it is only in the last 50 years. Even during the British rule, people were adepts in their precepts.
(11)Now coming to 1500 BC dated Byt Dwaraka, it was not Krishna's Dwaraka. Krishna's Dwaraka did go under water some 5000 years ago. The people were evacuated by Arjuna who took them – not to the Gangetic region perhaps because the inimical condition continued there but through a route in North west India. The route taken by him as described in Musala parva is shown in arrow marks in the picture below. This is where the Indus sites had flourished. The Indus culture was a post Mahabharatha culture which flourished in peaceful conditions in the trade routes to Europe under the vast and single kingdom of Pandava lineage. Earlier the routes were under the Kaurava control as Gandhara was the maternal home of the Kauravas. In my opinion the all- Indian participation in the Mahabharatha war was due to interests in controlling the trade routes.
By 1500 BC another deluge happened in Dwaraka. This is known from Tamil commentaries to Tholkappiyam, the grammar book of Tamil. It was at that time, the last deluge engulfed whatever was there in the Indian ocean too affecting Pandyan kingdom at Kavaatam. In this deluge the extension of Western ghats upto Madagascar got sunk in the water due to some subsidence in the ocean floor. I am saying all these with literary proof from SangamTamil and Silappadhikaram sources. If someone comes forward to do ocean floor or under water research, they will make epoch making discoveries, but they can't make such discoveries if they poke into Vedas and Vedic astrology. The Dwaraka that was submerged then was Byt Dwaraka where Indus civilisation flourished. Sage Agasthya brought the affected people – belonging to the royal family of Krishna, Velirs and 18 groups of artisans who were perhaps the 18 kudi people who accompanied Krishna from Mathura and settled down in Dwaraka. Their descendants are now merged in Tamilnadu! There is a Sangam poem that tells about the king of Mysore (called Erumaiyur in sangam age) as the 49th descendant of an ancestor who emerged from the Homa Kunda in the North. This resembles the emergence of Agni kula kshatriya. This migration to tamilnadu explains why the Indus symbols are present in Tamilnadu. This squarely puts at naught the AIT and subsequent Dravidian migration to Tamil lands. This also corresponds with 1500 BC existence of Byt Dwaraka. This proves that krishna's Dwaraka is still under the waters and must be probed.
(12) All the above seem to be out of context here, but they are written to show that Indian history goes easily into 1000s of years in the past. With the same culture continuing, there are ample evidences and internal sources to decipher the past. The following is Ahichatra or Ahi-kshetra in Panchala desa where the Homa was done from which Draupadi emerged. The excavation shows the existence of a triangular shaped region.
http://www.academia.edu/1538873/Archaeology_of_Panchal_with_special_reference_to_Ahichhatra
(13) Westerners may dismiss birth from a homa kunda as a myth. But the fact is that triangular shaped regions exhibit unusual energies. Bermuda triangle, England and Sicily are triangular in shape where unusual energies (crop circles in the latter two) are seen. No need to tell the fellow astrologers what the triangle shape signifies. A recent discovery of star shaped gravity waves in nature makes it look possible that energy channelized through Vedic Homa in triangular regions gives rise to wonders not otherwise known or seen in Nature.
Read more pics and the article here:
http://www.livescience.com/27341-weird-gravity-waves.html
This goes to show that there are many unknown energies around us in this earth. The above link and picture is shown to convey that shapes have some relevance in Nature. This is being highlighted here to convey why India had been the home for indigenous and intuitive ideas. India is triangular shaped; south India is very much of a triangular shape with natural boundaries on three sides with Vindhya- satpura ranges forming the northern side. The Tamil lands of three kings of Chera, Chola and Pandyas was very much triangular in shape with Venkata hills (Tirupathi) forming its northern border (according to Tholkpaaiyam). Perhaps this made it possible to have most of the Divya Desa of Vishnu which were actually places where wonders in the form of Vishnu Himself appearing to some devotee happened. The triangular region of South India (dandakaranya) was dotted with the ashrams of many maharishis in Ramayana period. This was because they could experience extraordinary energy levels in this triangular region. I am saying these to show that intuition and extraordinary power of the mind was the hallmark of ancient Indians. The discoveries of most things are reported with these rishis of the past which make westerners dismiss Indians as myth makers. Refusal to accept the long tradition of astrology which is a part of daily life is one such kind of dismissal. But they must know that the kind of life style of a Grahastha or an astrologer or a Vedic rishi was such that they moved within this triangular shaped India only and hardly moved out of India.
The three triangles of India one within the other is shown in the picture below. The ancient Tamil land forms the bottom most triangle and the most perfect triangle.
India as Navayoni.
The next issue is that of festivals – particularly the Sankaranthi festivals the dates of which the westerners say are wrong. It will be explained in the next article using a sangam Tamil poem. After that I will take up the rashi issue.
List of Jyothish Pravarthakas.
These rishis were the creators of Vedic astrology.
| S.No | Kashyapa samhita | Narada samhita | Parashara Hora sastra |
| 1 | Surya | Brahma | Surya |
| 2 | Pitamaha | Vyasa | Vishwasrit |
| 3 | Vyasa | Vasishta | Vyasa |
| 4 | Vasishta | Athri | Vasishta |
| 5 | Athri | Parashara | Athri |
| 6 | Parashara | Parashara | Parashara |
| 7 | Kashyapa | Narada | Kashyapa |
| 8 | Narada | Garga | Narada |
| 9 | Garga | Mareechi | Garga |
| 10 | Mareechi | Manu | Mareechi |
| 11 | Manu | Angiras Manu | |
| 12 | Angiras | Lomasa (Romasa) | Angiras |
| 13
| Lomasa (Romasa) | Chyavana | Lomasa (Romasa) |
| 14 | Poulisa | Yavana | Poulisa |
| 15 | Chyavana | Brighu | Chyavana |
| 16 | Yavana | Sounaka | Yavana |
| 17 | Brighu | Poulastya | Brighu |
| 18 | Sounaka | Acharya | Acharya |
(To be continued)
