Is Kaarthigai deepam a Tamil festival?

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A consolidated article of all the three articles on Kaarthigai Deepam can be read and downloaded as scribd document. Read the link at

http://www.scribd.com/doc/21878322/Kaarthigai-Deepam-cosmological-Cultural-religious-significance

(Continued from

http://jayasreesaranathan.blogspot.com/2008/11/kaarthigai-month-of-lamps.html )

A dominant view among the masses is that Kaarthigai deepam is

an important festival for Tamils only.

This post analyses this view.

In the last post in this series we found how the timing of this deepam festival

is cosmically determined –

the sun at its peak activity in the Southern hemisphere.

The Tamils of very ancient times were located in the south of the equator

and had Lord Shiva as their saviour.

There are verses in Sangam literature that tell us about the antiquity

of this Tamil land and culture

when Gods were walking on the land and interacting with people.

The first Sangam that was held 10,000 years ago

was presided by Lord Shiva himself. (Adiyaarkku Nallar says so).

The Pandyans were the descendants of Shiva and Paarvathy.

The Pandyans were known as "Panchavar" due to their origin from Pancha paani (another name for Paarvathy).

Lord Shiva had always heeded the prayers of the Pandyan kings

and 'the 'Thiruvilaiyaadal puranam' is a compilation of numerous instances

in which Lord Shiva helped the people and the kings of this Tamil land

which had Then-Madurai as its Capital.

Shiva is agni personified.

His anger is a well known trait.

His son Kaarthikeya, born in Krittika, destroyed the demon,

Soora padma of the Southern land of the Asuras.

The association with these two Gods is very much part of

Tamil's memory and culture.

When we say that the Tamils were in the south of the equator,

it means that they followed the sun's movement with reference to the south pole.

Their year must have started at Thula –

180 degrees opposite of zero degrees Aries.

The first event in their new year in Thula / Libra

must have been Soora samharam.

The first event of spiritually growing time must be some time opposite

to Akshaya thritheeya of the Northern hemisphere.

Akshaya thritheeya happens when moon is in Taurus with sun in Aries.

The corresponding event in the south occurs with the sun in Sagittarius

(similar to Aries sign ruled by Mars)

with moon in Taurus!

(It is on that day, Kaathigai deepam festival is celebrated.)

This is one probable explanation for why Kaarthigai deepam

became a special to Tamils and not to others.

This time continues with them even after the lands moved

and people shifted to what is now South India.

Another interesting correlation is the specialty of Thiruvannamalai

where this Deepam festival is an important event.

Geologists are of the opinion that this hills was once a volcano!

Yes, what we see today as Thiruvannamalai is an extinct volcano

which was once spewing fire from its cap.

This perhaps explains the myth of the Fiery Shiva as Arunachaleswara

whose head and feet could not be found out by Brahma and Vishnu.

The burning hills personified as Shiva was non-explorable.

The memory of that geological event is perhaps kept on

by lighting deepam atop the hill on the Kaarthigai pournami day!

Perhaps it was on this day sometime in the remote past,

the myth of exploring the head and feet of Shiva happened.

Since Shiva was the deity of the Pandyans,

this festival could have been started from the times it was known

that this hill once personified Shiva with fire leaping from its peak.

But Vishnu worship also was known in Tamil lands.

The Thrivikrama (Vamana) personification connected with this day

(as explained in the previous post)

also existed in the Tamil lands.

This can be understood from the fact that the Vikrama Era

started from soon after the Full moon of Kaarthika (lunar month)

-indicating that this calendar in fact was originally followed in the South

rather than in the Northern parts.

To explain this better,

we know that among the various calendars that are (were) in use,

Vikrama calendar and Salivahana calendar were the most popular ones.

There is no authentic proof for why and how these two calendars were formed.

Most historians following the history written by the invading Britishers think

that Vikrama Era was initiated by King Vikramadhithya and

it was later replaced by Salivahanas.

But the unique difference between these two calendars

indicates that the origins may lie elsewhere.

It is that the Vikrama calendar follows the Southern pattern –

the new year starts with the month of Kaarthika

Whereas the salivahana calendar starts with Chaithra –

following the Northern pattern.

The North – south I mention here is about the hemispheres.

The Vikrama calendar is the calendar of the Southern hemisphere

starting from the dark phase – from the day after the Full moon in Kaarthika.

The salivahana calendar is the calendar of the Northern hemisphere

starting from the day after the New moon in Chaithra.

Naturally Salivahana seemed to be realistic to the people about 2000 years ago

living in the north of the equator,

as they thought it fit to replace the calendar of the south

and started the Salivahana Era.

This is how the transition could have come.

The Vikrama calendar which started on 56 BC

(coinciding with zero ayanamsa at Aries)

must have been

an adaptation of some previously used Southern Calendar

which was based on Vikrama's third step from Vernal to Autumnal

(just the opposite in the south) equinox!

Such a calendar would obviously begin in the Krishna Paksha –

because South is about darkness – of the demons.

South is about starting the year some time in Libra or Sagittarius.

This is how the Kaarthigai deepam could have come to be associated

with Tamils of the long past,

irrespective of their god-beliefs - in Shiva or Vishnu

*************

Some reference to Kaarthigai deepam in Aga nanuru:-

அகநானூறு 141


மழைகால் நீங்கிய மாக விசும்பில்
குறுமுயல் மறுநிறம் கிளர, மதி நிறைந்து,
அறுமீன் சேரும் அகல்இருள் நடுநாள்:
மறுகுவிளக் குறுத்து, மாலை தூக்கிப்,
பழவிறல் மூதூர்ப் பலருடன் துவன்றிய 141-10

விழவுஉடன் அயர, வருகதில் அம்ம!

Meaning:-

(The rainy season is over. The sky wears the color of a small rabbit.

In such a time, the Moon has become Full (pournami) on the 6-star constellation of Kritthika.

Lamps have been lit in the streets. Garlands have been hung.

In this antiquated place known for victory, when all the people are celebrating the festival (of Lights),

let my man come quickly and join us in the festivities. )

*****************

அகநானூறு 11

வானம் ஊர்ந்த வயங்கொளி மண்டிலம்
நெருப்பெனச் சிவந்த உருப்பவிர் அங்காட்டு,
இலையில மலர்ந்த முகையில் இலவம்
கலிகொள் ஆயம் மலிபுதொகுபு எடுத்த
அஞ்சுடர் நெடுங்கொடி பொற்பத் தோன்றி,

Meaning:-

(The bright sun moving in the sky has made the forest hot.

In that forest, the "Ilavam" flowers that have blown in a row

resemble the bright lamps lit in a row by the enthused women .)

***************

அகநானூறு 185
பெருவிழா விளக்கம் போலப், பலவுடன்
இலைஇல மலர்ந்த இலவமொடு

Meaning:-

(The Ilavam flowers looked like the big festival of Lights)

(to be continued)

Temples are for Dharma.

Idol worship and the many gods of Hinduism had been a source of attack on Hinduism and also of dis-information about Hinduism.


The following links provide a concise explanation on these and also on the rationale of Temple worship. Other issues on the state of temples also are covered.


In other religions there is one God but he exists outside the his creation.
But in Hinduism Gods are  many, and that is not a defective version on God. It means that God is in all things and can be perceived as anything that one wishes. It means God is in everything and everything is in God...
So goes the rationale of many gods of Hinduism

Significant Role of Temples and Religious Institutions (PDF)

Sustaining Dharma Through Mandirs (PDF)

Government Control of Temples in India (PDF)

Denial of Religious Freedom to Hindu Community in India (PPS)

Hindu Dharma Acharya Sabha (PDF)

 Hindu Jewish Declaration (PDF) 

 

Chandrayan – an opportunity for Karunanidhi to deface Indian Myths!

Chandrayan –I

The probe that made us all proud can be used to deface our Mother Culture too!

The one person who is capable of doing that and who never misses an occasion to do that has done such defacing again!

Who else but Mr Karunanidhi is again in the news with his prejudices against the Indian pride, past and culture.

In his urge to deface Hindu myths, he has lost the memory of the Tamil that nurtured him.

“ThingaLai-p-pOttruthum” is the opening verse of Silappadhikaaram praising the Moon.

The ‘ThingaL kuzhavi Imayavar yEttha’ as told by Ilango AdigaL is the myth of crescent moon

on the forehead of Lord Shiva.

Is Mr Karunannidhi ready to rubbish Ilango AdigaL for that

or even for the numerous other references to myths and gods?

The “Gyaayiru pOttruthum” that Mr Karunanidhi borrowed from Silappadhikaaram to justify the Surya namaskaar that he is doing everyday, also comes with the mythology of the sun going round the Meru.

Is he ready to brand all those verses found in numerous Tamil texts as rubbish?

No he won’t, because Tamil is his mother language.

But he must know that the culture he is born is in and the religion he is born in also are to be revered as his mother.

The kind of virulent attack he is doing on the culture and religion he is born is akin to abuse of one’s own mother. It is a pity that the numerous Tamil texts he has studied had not given him that sense of pride or ownership of his culture and religion.

Every time he finds himself cornered on an issue, he used to resort to writing poems by spewing venom on something Bharatheeya or Brahmanic in order to divert the attention of the public and the media.

When he could not handle the Utthapuram caste conflicts, he wrote a poem questioning the wearing of Tilak and sacred thread.

Now the unprecedented violence at the Law college (more of this can be expected in the coming days thanks to the venom of caste politics that has permeated even the youth) is needed to be diverted from the attention of the Public.

The success of Chandrayan –I looks like an occasion but what pep can be there if there is not hate-politics attached to it?

So here is our Chief Minister penning his rational thoughts on Moon (Chandra) from mythology.

Moon eloping with Guru's wife is his centre of attack.

But none can question him how he can promote an idea of 'kissing a young lady' (moon's probe on the moon is compared like this by him).

I am only reminded of the 6 blind persons probing an elephant and arriving at bizarre conclusions.

Hindu mythological stories are such that they are framed in such a form of stories as not to be forgotten easily, but could be understood only when one uses his brains to probe with the vision of 6 persons.

The formation of the planets and solar system have been encapsuled in those myths.

When it is said that moon eloped with wife of Guru (Jupiter ) that eventually resulted in the birth of mercury (budhan), it is about how mercury was formed in the early period of planetary evolution.

Jupiter itself is said to be part of a passing star. From Hindu thought we know that it was from the star Pushya.

Naturally Tara (which means star) is his wife. That is Jupiter had more of star nature or star-bulk in the early years.

That was disturbed by the Moon as a result of which Mercury formed from the parts of moon and Jupiter.

Moon itself was born of sage Athri, one of the Seven stars of the Saptha rishi mandala.

Science also has accepted that Moon's contents are not of earth or any nearby terrestrial planet. It was hurled in to the solar system from the star clashes and was captured by the earth into orbit.

Another story from Hindu mythology says that Mars was born of earth. That is why it is known as Bhouman.

Scientists too have acknowledged similarities with Mars and earth.

But not with moon and earth.

Another mythology about moon is about his 27 wives – who are none but the 27 stars that it treks one a day. The moon is said to be fond of Rohini among them.
That is because moon's path on the sky is closer to Rohini than to other stars.

Rohini is on the path of the zodiac where the planets travel.

That is why even other planets make a 'pass' at her.

From a narration in Ramayana we know that Saturn used to go near her.

But when he is near Rohini, the world used to experience famines.

So King Dasaratha was advised to pray to Saturn to spare Rohini.

The famous Sani sthuthi was composed by him then and heeding his appeal Saturn did not go near her.

This is an important information for scientists to probe whether Saturn changed from its course anytime in the past. Hindu mythologies give a number of clues on cosmos and scientists can take a leaf out of them and probe further.

Like this many facts of the past have been hidden in the mythological stories.

Hindu mythology has been a rich source of unraveling the history of the past of the world and the cosmos also.

By rubbishing them, Karunanidhi is only demonstrating the limits of his wisdom.

-jayasree

Related articles :-

http://jayasreesaranathan.blogspot.com/2008/04/when-will-solar-system-end-from-science.html

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=okR0s7oC42UC&pg=PA58&lpg=PA58&dq=Moon+and+Guru%27s+wife+tara&source=web&ots=lpojMuANOR&sig=3awda82W7ECU0ZqCk_G6MvyOzK8&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result

http://www.tamilhindu.com/2008/11/chandrayan-and-muka-poem/

CM rubbishes Hindu beliefs on moon

http://server1.dc-epaper.com/DC/DCC/2008/11/16/ArticleHtmls/16_11_2008_004_002.shtml?Mode=0

DMK patriarch and chief minister M. Karunanidhi, a professed atheist, does not miss an opportunity to rubbish Hindu beliefs, epics and ancient scriptures. His latest missile is a poem that starts beautifully romantic only to end up pouring scorn on the moon legends of the Hindus, who consider the moon a god.

Utilizing the occasion of the Moon Impact Probe (MIP) of Chandrayaan I landing on the moon, Mr Karunanidhi first described the moon to a young beautiful woman and said the MIP landing on the lunar surface with the national tricolour painted on its sides, "is like planting a kiss on a young lady." Terming the landing of the MIP as a proud moment for India and a "miracle in scientific history," he lauded Indian scientists for their achievement. "This has vanquished all lies and figment of imagination. (regarding moon). Indian scientists have joined American, Russian and European nations in probing the moon, he said in the poem.

Beneath the greeting message to the scientific community and the nation, the DMK chief chose to spike the Hindu mythology on Chandran (Moon God) and the explanation on lunar eclipse. Taking a dig at the Hindu legend that Chandran was Tara, wife of sage Brihaspati who is the lord of planet Jupiter, he said in the poem titled Pride, "the Chandran who became lover of Guru's wife Tara is glorified in the puranas." The poem of 14 lines refer to some other Hindu beliefs too, such as the one on the lunar eclipse—"Snakes two – Rahu and Ketu, swallow Chandran, and Panchangam (almanac) explain this as grahanam (eclipse)." Known to be a passionate torchbearer of the rationalist ideologies of EVR Periyar, the chief minister has been displaying little tolerance to the Hindus sporting vermilion or the Brahmins wearing the sacred thread. He even chastised his partymen for indulging in religious rituals or following superstitious beliefs.

As if to break the tradition retained by the Brahmin in practising Agama Sastras, he had passed laws to make the dalit students join a yearlong certificate course in these priesthood studies.

Hindu mythologies give a number of clues on cosmos and scientists can take a leaf out of them and probe further.

Kaarthigai – the month of lamps.

A consolidated article of all the three articles on Kaarthigai Deepam can be read and downloaded as scribd document. Read the link at

http://www.scribd.com/doc/21878322/Kaarthigai-Deepam-cosmological-Cultural-religious-significance

The solar month of Kaarthigai is to begin in a few hours.

Kaarthigai comes with lighting lamps.

Lighting lamps during twilight hours on all days of

the solar month of Kaarthigai

is an age-old practice.

The special occasion is the full moon day in Kaarthigai

when all houses and temples will be decorated with oil lamps after sunset.

This festival is an important one for both shivites and vaishanvites and

is variously known as Bharani deepam, Kaarthigai deepam and Vishnu deepam.

This is considered solely as a Tamil festival, as it is not celebrated in other parts of India.

This post analyses the various aspects of this festival –

cosmological, historical and vedic.

**************************

First of all, a clarification on the difference between

lighting lamps on Deepavali (as it is done in most of India barring Tamilnadu)

and lighting lamps on Kaarthigai pournami.

The obvious difference is that Deepavali coincides with New / no moon day

whereas Kaarthigai deepam coincides with Full moon day.

But the intricate difference is that, lighting lamps on Deepavali

is to celebrate a historical event of the death of Narakasura

while that of the Kaarthigai is a kind of worship on a cosmically important day.

According to the astrological text, Kalaprakasika,

kaarthgai deepam is celebrated on the Full moon day of the solar month of kaarthgai.

The Full moon is the fundamental signifactor.

The star krittika may or may not be present.

But the deepam must be lighted on the Full moon.

If the full moon continues in the next evening, the deepam must be lit then.

Even if there is a lunar eclipse, the deepam must be lit.

This festival ensures prosperity and good rains to the country.

The lighting time must coincide with exact sun set or just before sunset or at twilight.

The twilight is defined as the time when sun will be within 18 degrees below the horizon.

It takes 4 minutes to cross a degree.

That means twilight stretches for 1 hour and 12 minutes after sunset.

It is within this time the Kaarthigai deepam is lit.

The details of how this festival is to be celebrated

is given in this link from Kalaprakasika.

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=e_8MaBfTncgC&pg=PP7&lpg=PP7&dq=kalaprakasika+translation&source=web&ots=7096Yp5mnG&sig=_pN0EIEn38u-y2pjz277r4gtheM&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPA240,M1

Why the month Kaarthigai?

Lighting lamps is an everyday practice as a part of worship.

But why this month of Kaarthigai has been specifically chosen is a question.

If we look into the details connected with this month,

we will know the cosmological and historical significance of this month.

This month lies opposite to Vaikasi when the summer is at its peak

in the northern hemisphere.

Kaarthigai is the time of peak summer in the southern hemisphere.

What we call as Agni nakshathra days in the North

is experienced in the south during this month.

http://jayasreesaranathan.blogspot.com/2008/05/some-thoughts-on-agni-nakshathra.html

The agni nakshathra days are too hot for conducting mundane affairs.

But this Kaarthigai month is cold – devoid of solar strength.

So generate heat at that time.

A gentle but a steady and pleasant heating is done during this month.

Kaarthigai is the month when the lunar strength is also at his lowest.

It is the month when the moon reaches its debility.

The moon with the sun in this month (in the constellation of Scorpio)

is a low-spirited time for the lunar power.

If the lord of the month – Mars signifying Lord Muruga

who was born in the star krittika of warrior tendencies is well placed,

the mental faculties as signified by the moon can be of appreciable nature.

That is how, here comes the connection of Lord Muruga!

Muruga’s birth is for destroying demons and

demons are the ones who inhabited the southern hemisphere according to puranas.

We can notice that almost all festivals in the period of Dakshinayana

are connected with slaying of some asura –

be it about Mahishasura or Narakasura or Soorapadma.

The gods had been active in the southern hemisphere in the southern ayana!

Muruga’s birth star is krittika.

Krittika has Agni as its Lord.

It is generally not advised to do any auspicious thing on the day of Krittika.

It is because its Lord Agni will eat them up (swaaha).

Kritikka is the Lord of sword – one of the deadly weapons.

The sword has krittika as nakshatra,

Rohini as gotra,

Agni as the deity and

Rudra as the Maharishi.

Lord Muruga born in such a krittika

signifies anger coupled with valour (Aha nanuru and Purananuru verses say so)

of the nature of the Celestial Commander in chief that

he stands for destruction of demonic forces.

That happened in the land of the demons in the southern hemisphere

at the peak time of Sun over there!

That was in the month of Kaarthigai.

This festival as an important one for the Tamils may perhaps

be traced to traced to two factors.

One is that the habitat of the Pandyans

was in the southern hemisphere, thousands of years ago

and it is probable that the inhabitants (Tamils)

were frequently troubled by the demons from deep south.

Muruga saved them from the demons and hence came to be glorified by them.

The other factor may be about the connection with

Meenakshi – Sundareswarar whose descendants came to rule the Kuamri land (Kanni Desam) 

with the divine help of Shiva – the son-in-law of the land.

Further back into antiquity, it is possible to relate the inhabitants of that land

to the subjects of Daksha-prajapathi whose daughter married Lord Shiva.

We can see that the daughter of this land has been married to Lord Shiva

during different incarnations and

that is how Shiva became the torch bearer for the dynasty

of the southern lands of Tamils (Thennavar).

There is even an opinion among scholars that

the people of ‘Then-pulam’ (departed ancestors ) mentioned by Thiru valluvar

was about remembering the ancestors of a by-gone era

who were located in the Southern hemisphere!

Due to connections like these,

it is probable that the Kaarthigai festival became a special one for Tamils.

Now about the association with Vishnu.

Kaarthigai deepam is known as the Vishnu deepam and

it is an equally important occasion at Vaishnavite houses and temples.

It is because the Full moon of Kaarthigai denotes Vishnu paadam!

If the Vishnu-paadam in the North signifying Vishu corresponds to the Vernal equinox,

the Vishnu deepam corresponds to the Autumnal equinox in the South (hemisphere).

Autumnal equinoctial point is Lord Thrivikrama’s sthithi (where he stood)

and also the third foot on Bali pressing him down to the underworld.

This can be understood from the explanation found in Surya siddhantha.

Surya Siddhantha explains the sojourn of the sun

through the two ayanas as Vamana avathara.

The sign of Capricorn (Makar) at the start of Uttarayana denotes

the first step of Lord Thrivikrama –him measuring the bhoo-loka.

The second step is the loftiest one pointing to Heavens at Vernal equinox (vishuvat).

The third step must be brought down to his sthithi,

but placed on Bali pressing him down to underworld

which is the plane below the southern equinoctial location.

In vedic parlance North / uttar is about the plane above our plane of existence.

South / Dakshin means the plane below our plane of existence.

The directions as such are understood in this way only.

The first step at Uttarayana.

The second step at Vishuvat – Vernal equinox.

The third step at Autumnal equinox!

With that the asura (Mahabali) is vanquished.

This is remembered as ‘Sokka –p-paanai’ or bonfire

lit on the Kaarthigai deepam day in the Vishnu temples.

Finally why the name Kaarthigai

when then Kaarthigai star is not there in that constellation?

It is because the naming of the months was done based on the star

in which Full moon happens in that month.

All the lunar months have been named in that way.

The solar months were names based on the Rasi (constellation)

such as Mesha maasam, Vrishanbha maasam etc.

The Tamils used the solar way only.

This can be substantiated from the astrological texts and Naadi readings

wherein solar names and their equivalents only were used.

But lunar naming is connected with vrathas or spiritual uses.

It seems that in course of time the lunar names had been adopted

which could have undergone variations such as aani, aadi etc.

In this connection, let me clarify the use of different ways of computing time.

There had been in vogue solar time, (saura mana)

Lunar time (chandra mana)

Civil time (savanna mana)

and star time (nakshathra mana).

All these are used in day to day life.

Solar time is about the duration covered by one rotation of the earth on its axis.

Lunar time is about the duration between one New moon to another New moon.

Savanna time is about the duration from one sunrise to another sunrise.

Star time is about the rotation of the earth with reference to a fixed star.

It is time taken to come back to the same star in the course of rotation of the earth.

The solar time is used in the case of events.

That is why we say the year starts when the sun is in zero degree Aries,

For, that is the basis for computing events for the year.

The yearly prediction depends on Sun’s sojourn

from its beginning point which was zero degree Aries when this Kalpa started.

The Lunar time is used for spiritual and religious purposes.

That is why the injunction on Thithi (Full moon for deepam festival)

The savanna mana is for festivals and mundane activities.

For example Deepavali is indeed at the break of dawn on the New moon day.

But any auspicious festival requires one to take oil bath.

Since New moon after dawn is a thithi for pithru kaaryam,

oil bath can not be taken after sunrise on New moon.

That is why the injunction on oil bath before sunrise on Deepavali.

The nakshathra mana is purely for keeping track of time with reference to space.

This has relevance in locating lagna and planets at any given time.

This has vast application in astrology.

As for the current topic,

the solar month is the signifactor of the event in cosmos and earthen hemisphere.

The Lunar connection is for worship purpose.

(to be continued)

Amitabh Bachchan for a cause on Sanathana Dharma

Amitabh Bachchan as sutradhari for Bharath gyan

Note from Dr S.kalyanaraman:-

Here's an extraordinary blog entry from one of the most celebrated world citizen -- Amitabh Bachchan.

It is such a thrill to note that he has seen the 64+ modules of Bharath Gyan prepared by the enthusiastic couple, DK Hari and Hema Hari. http://www.bharathgyan.com

Mr Hari of Bharath Gyan

The remarkable wealth of knowledge that our ancestors have given us as a legacy should reverberate in every farm, every school, every home, everywhere in the globe.

I wish Amitabh and his family together with Hari and Hema every success in performing this yajna to promote dharma, the quintessence of the multi-faceted culture of India.

***************************************************

DAY 203

Posted on: November 12, 2008 - 11:01 pm Comments: 224

Prateeksha, Mumbai November 12, 2008 10:40 pm

"Your religion is what you do after the sermon is over "

Getting down to a routine, bringing back the timings that will encompass me in a few days and rescheduling my dates for films, has been the major activity through out the day. Apart of course from the time spent in catching up with Abhishek and Aishwarya.

Abhishek goes off to various interviews for the promotion of 'Dostana', Aishwarya takes a flight back to Kerala and I get into a meeting which is enlightening.

A couple from Chennai have researched for years the glory of India its history and culture and its very roots. Have studied and analyzed our scriptures - Ramayana, Mahabharata, Vedas and put up a most interesting presentation called "Bharat Gyan'. In an hour long computer and verbal infotainment, they seek participation from me in a project that I believe will be of immense value to all.

I shall give it serious consideration.

Of the hundreds of topics that they spoke about and gave me interpretations of, there was just one matter that I learnt - that BC and AD, now no longer exist. Its BCE and CE and BP. Before Common Era, BCE Common Era, CE And BP is Before Present.

And all this came about through debate and discussion in various International Historical Congress, because there was uncertainty on the date for the Birth of Christ. So periods mentioned as Before Christ and After Christ, had to be reconsidered.

There are about 500 to 600 hours of material collected by this duo on every possible aspect, mentioned exhaustively in the Rig Veda and associated manuscripts and I am keen to get this across to the people of India and seek their questions and answers that this exercise shall raise.

It will be a fascinating experience, I promise.

But before that, I must rest and recuperate in order to devote quality time to it..

So, good night and my love.

Amitabh Bachchan http://bigb.bigadda.com/

***********************************************************

Related posts on Bharath gyan's works:-

http://www.historicalrama.org/Historical%20Rama%20-%20Report%20-%202007.pdf

http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/nov/20inter.htm

http://jayasreesaranathan.blogspot.com/2008/11/ramayan-sites-in-srilanka.html

Obama on his Faith and Conversions too..

This post could have had a more apt title as

"God and I" by Obama, the US President elect.

But I chose to word it as how I have given above.

The reason is that while we in India prefer to keep our fingers crossed

on the prospective Obama-Effect on our country,

this is one piece of information from him that gives a great solace and

also a ray of hope that

there is going be a person in a powerful and influential arena of a Christian country

who can not stomach the conversion activities elsewhere – where other Faiths reign.

His vociferous assertion,

"…This is something that I'm sure I'd have serious debates with my fellow Christians about. I think that the difficult thing about any religion, including Christianity, is that at some level there is a call to evangelize and prostelytize. There's the belief, certainly in some quarters, that people haven't embraced Jesus Christ as their personal savior that they're going to hell.

I find it hard to believe that my God would consign four-fifths of the world to hell.

I can't imagine that my God would allow some little Hindu kid in India who never interacts with the Christian faith to somehow burn for all eternity.

That's just not part of my religious makeup."

is truly civic and civilized that I wish is understood

by all those who have an evangelical agenda in India.

Hope with Obama in Presidency, a change comes in evangelist enthusiasm too

and a commitment not to encroach others' religious space.

- jayasree

Text of the full interview at

http://blog.beliefnet.com/stevenwaldman/2008/11/obamas-interview-with-cathleen.html

Obama's Fascinating Interview with Cathleen Falsani

Tuesday November 11, 2008

The most detailed and fascinating explication of Barack Obama's faith came in a 2004 interview he gave Chicago Sun Times columnist Cathleen Falsani when he was running for U.S. Senate in Illinois. The column she wrote about the interview has been quoted and misquoted many times over, but she'd never before published the full transcript in a major publication.

Because of how controversial that interview became, Falsani has graciously allowed us to print the full conversation here.

Falsani is one of the most gifted interviews on matters of Faith, and has recently published an outstanding memoir called Sin Boldly: A Field Guide for Grace. To get a free download of the audio book, click here.

* * *

At 3:30 p.m. on Saturday, March 27, 2004, when I was the religion reporter (I am now its religion columnist) at the Chicago Sun-Times, I met then-State Sen. Barack Obama at Café Baci, a small coffee joint at 330 S. Michigan Avenue in Chicago, to interview him exclusively about his spirituality. Our conversation took place a few days after he'd clinched the Democratic nomination for the U.S. Senate seat that he eventually won. We spoke for more than an hour. He came alone. He answered everything I asked without notes or hesitation. The profile of Obama that grew from the interview at Cafe Baci became the first in a series in the Sun-Times called "The God Factor," that eventually became my first book, The God Factor: Inside the Spiritual Lives of Public People (FSG, March 2006.) Because of the staggering interest in now President-Elect Obama's faith and spiritual predilections, I thought it might be helpful to share that interivew, uncut and in its entirety, here.

--Cathleen Falsani

Interview with State Sen. Barack Obama
3:30 p.m., Saturday March 27
Café Baci, 330 S. Michigan Avenue

Me: decaf
He: alone, on time, grabs a Naked juice protein shake

FALSANI:
What do you believe?

OBAMA:
I am a Christian.

So, I have a deep faith. So I draw from the Christian faith.

On the other hand, I was born in Hawaii where obviously there are a lot of Eastern influences.

I lived in Indonesia, the largest Muslim country in the world, between the ages of six and 10.

My father was from Kenya, and although he was probably most accurately labeled an agnostic, his father was Muslim.

And I'd say, probably, intellectually I've drawn as much from Judaism as any other faith.

(A patron stops and says, "Congratulations," shakes his hand. "Thank you very much. I appreciate that. Thank you.")

So, I'm rooted in the Christian tradition. I believe that there are many paths to the same place, and that is a belief that there is a higher power, a belief that we are connected as a people. That there are values that transcend race or culture, that move us forward, and there's an obligation for all of us individually as well as collectively to take responsibility to make those values lived.

And so, part of my project in life was probably to spend the first 40 years of my life figuring out what I did believe - I'm 42 now - and it's not that I had it all completely worked out, but I'm spending a lot of time now trying to apply what I believe and trying to live up to those values.

FALSANI:
Have you always been a Christian?

OBAMA:
I was raised more by my mother and my mother was Christian.

FALSANI:
Any particular flavor?

OBAMA:
No.

My grandparents who were from small towns in Kansas. My grandmother was Methodist. My grandfather was Baptist. This was at a time when I think the Methodists felt slightly superior to the Baptists. And by the time I was born, they were, I think, my grandparents had joined a Universalist church.

So, my mother, who I think had as much influence on my values as anybody, was not someone who wore her religion on her sleeve. We'd go to church for Easter. She wasn't a church lady.

As I said, we moved to Indonesia. She remarried an Indonesian who wasn't particularly, he wasn't a practicing Muslim. I went to a Catholic school in a Muslim country. So I was studying the Bible and catechisms by day, and at night you'd hear the prayer call.

So I don't think as a child we were, or I had a structured religious education. But my mother was deeply spiritual person, and would spend a lot of time talking about values and give me books about the world's religions, and talk to me about them. And I think always, her view always was that underlying these religions were a common set of beliefs about how you treat other people and how you aspire to act, not just for yourself but also for the greater good.

And, so that, I think, was what I carried with me through college. I probably didn't get started getting active in church activities until I moved to Chicago.

The way I came to Chicago in 1985 was that I was interested in community organizing and I was inspired by the Civil Rights movement. And the idea that ordinary people could do extraordinary things. And there was a group of churches out on the South Side of Chicago that had come together to form an organization to try to deal with the devastation of steel plants that had closed. And didn't have much money, but felt that if they formed an organization and hired somebody to organize them to work on issues that affected their community, that it would strengthen the church and also strengthen the community.

So they hired me, for $13,000 a year. The princely sum. And I drove out here and I didn't know anybody and started working with both the ministers and the lay people in these churches on issues like creating job training programs, or after school programs for youth, or making sure that city services were fairly allocated to underserved communites.

This would be in Roseland, West Pullman, Altgeld Gardens, far South Side working class and lower income communities.

And it was in those places where I think what had been more of an intellectual view of religion deepened because I'd be spending an enormous amount of time with church ladies, sort of surrogate mothers and fathers and everybody I was working with was 50 or 55 or 60, and here I was a 23-year-old kid running around.

I became much more familiar with the ongoing tradition of the historic black church and it's importance in the community.

And the power of that culture to give people strength in very difficult circumstances, and the power of that church to give people courage against great odds. And it moved me deeply.

So that, one of the churches I met, or one of the churches that I became involved in was Trinity United Church of Christ. And the pastor there, Jeremiah Wright, became a good friend. So I joined that church and committed myself to Christ in that church.

FALSANI:
Did you actually go up for an altar call?

OBAMA:
Yes. Absolutely.

It was a daytime service, during a daytime service. And it was a powerful moment. Because, it was powerful for me because it not only confirmed my faith, it not only gave shape to my faith, but I think, also, allowed me to connect the work I had been pursuing with my faith.

FALSANI:
How long ago?

OBAMA:
16, 17 years ago. 1987 or 88

FALSANI:
So you got yourself born again?

OBAMA:
Yeah, although I don't, I retain from my childhood and my experiences growing up a suspicion of dogma. And I'm not somebody who is always comfortable with language that implies I've got a monopoly on the truth, or that my faith is automatically transferable to others.

I'm a big believer in tolerance. I think that religion at it's best comes with a big dose of doubt. I'm suspicious of too much certainty in the pursuit of understanding just because I think people are limited in their understanding.

I think that, particularly as somebody who's now in the public realm and is a student of what brings people together and what drives them apart, there's an enormous amount of damage done around the world in the name of religion and certainty.

FALSANI
Do you still attend Trinity?

OBAMA:
Yep. Every week. 11 oclock service.

Ever been there? Good service.

I actually wrote a book called Dreams from My Father, it's kind of a meditation on race. There's a whole chapter on the church in that, and my first visits to Trinity.

FALSANI:
Do you pray often?

OBAMA:
Uh, yeah, I guess I do.

Its' not formal, me getting on my knees. I think I have an ongoing conversation with God. I think throughout the day, I'm constantly asking myself questions about what I'm doing, why am I doing it.

One of the interesting things about being in public life is there are constantly these pressures being placed on you from different sides. To be effective, you have to be able to listen to a variety of points of view, synthesize viewpoints. You also have to know when to be just a strong advocate, and push back against certain people or views that you think aren't right or don't serve your constituents.

And so, the biggest challenge, I think, is always maintaining your moral compass. Those are the conversations I'm having internally. I'm measuring my actions against that inner voice that for me at least is audible, is active, it tells me where I think I'm on track and where I think I'm off track.

It's interesting particularly now after this election, comes with it a lot of celebrity. And I always think of politics as having two sides. There's a vanity aspect to politics, and then there's a substantive part of politics. Now you need some sizzle with the steak to be effective, but I think it's easy to get swept up in the vanity side of it, the desire to be liked and recognized and important. It's important for me throughout the day to measure and to take stock and to say, now, am I doing this because I think it's advantageous to me politically, or because I think it's the right thing to do? Am I doing this to get my name in the papers or am I doing this because it's necessary to accomplish my motives.

FALSANI:
Checking for altruism?

OBAMA:
Yeah. I mean, something like it.

Looking for, ... It's interesting, the most powerful political moments for me come when I feel like my actions are aligned with a certain truth. I can feel it. When I'm talking to a group and I'm saying something truthful, I can feel a power that comes out of those statements that is different than when I'm just being glib or clever.

FALSANI:
What's that power? Is it the holy spirit? God?

OBAMA:
Well, I think it's the power of the recognition of God, or the recognition of a larger truth that is being shared between me and an audience.

That's something you learn watching ministers, quite a bit. What they call the Holy Spirit. They want the Holy Spirit to come down before they're preaching, right? Not to try to intellectualize it but what I see is there are moments that happen within a sermon where the minister gets out of his ego and is speaking from a deeper source. And it's powerful.

There are also times when you can see the ego getting in the way. Where the minister is performing and clearly straining for applause or an Amen. And those are distinct moments. I think those former moments are sacred.

FALSANI:
Who's Jesus to you?

(He laughs nervously)

OBAMA:
Right.

Jesus is an historical figure for me, and he's also a bridge between God and man, in the Christian faith, and one that I think is powerful precisely because he serves as that means of us reaching something higher.

And he's also a wonderful teacher. I think it's important for all of us, of whatever faith, to have teachers in the flesh and also teachers in history.

FALSANI:
Is Jesus someone who you feel you have a regular connection with now, a personal connection with in your life?

OBAMA:
Yeah. Yes. I think some of the things I talked about earlier are addressed through, are channeled through my Christian faith and a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

FALSANI:
Have you read the bible?

OBAMA:
Absolutely.

I read it not as regularly as I would like. These days I don't have much time for reading or reflection, period.

FALSANI:
Do you try to take some time for whatever, meditation prayer reading?

OBAMA:
I'll be honest with you, I used to all the time, in a fairly disciplined way. But during the course of this campaign, I don't. And I probably need to and would like to, but that's where that internal monologue, or dialogue I think supplants my opportunity to read and reflect in a structured way these days.

It's much more sort of as I'm going through the day trying to take stock and take a moment here and a moment there to take stock, why am I here, how does this connect with a larger sense of purpose.

FALSANI:
Do you have people in your life that you look to for guidance?

OBAMA:
Well, my pastor [Jeremiah Wright] is certainly someone who I have an enormous amount of respect for.

I have a number of friends who are ministers. Reverend Meeks is a close friend and colleague of mine in the state Senate. Father Michael Pfleger is a dear friend, and somebody I interact with closely.

FALSANI:
Those two will keep you on your toes.

OBAMA:
And theyr'e good friends. Because both of them are in the public eye, there are ways we can all reflect on what's happening to each of us in ways that are useful.

I think they can help me, they can appreciate certain specific challenges that I go through as a public figure.

FALSANI:
Jack Ryan [Obama's Republican opponent in the U.S. Senate race at the time] said talking about your faith is frought with peril for a public figure.

OBAMA:
Which is why you generally will not see me spending a lot of time talking about it on the stump.

Alongside my own deep personal faith, I am a follower, as well, of our civic religion. I am a big believer in the separation of church and state. I am a big believer in our constitutional structure. I mean, I'm a law professor at the University of Chicago teaching constitutional law. I am a great admirer of our founding charter, and its resolve to prevent theocracies from forming, and its resolve to prevent disruptive strains of fundamentalism from taking root ion this country.

As I said before, in my own public policy, I'm very suspicious of religious certainty expressing itself in politics.

Now, that's different form a belief that values have to inform our public policy. I think it's perfectly consistent to say that I want my government to be operating for all faiths and all peoples, including atheists and agnostics, while also insisting that there are values tha tinform my politics that are appropriate to talk about.

A standard line in my stump speech during this campaign is that my politics are informed by a belief that we're all connected. That if there's a child on the South Side of Chicago that can't read, that makes a difference in my life even if it's not my own child. If there's a senior citizen in downstate Illinois that's struggling to pay for their medicine and having to chose between medicine and the rent, that makes my life poorer even if it's not my grandparent. And if there's an Arab American family that's being rounded up by John Ashcroft without the benefit of due process, that threatens my civil liberties.

I can give religious expression to that. I am my brother's keeper, I am my sister's keeper, we are all children of God. Or I can express it in secular terms. But the basic premise remains the same. I think sometimes Democrats have made the mistake of shying away from a conversation about values for fear that they sacrifice the important value of tolerance. And I don't think those two things are mutually exclusive.

FALSANI:
Do you think it's wrong for people to want to know about a civic leader's spirituality?

OBAMA:
I don't' think it's wrong. I think that political leaders are subject to all sorts of vetting by the public, and this can be a component of that.

I think that I am disturbed by, let me put it this way: I think there is an enormous danger on the part of public figures to rationalize or justify their actions by claiming God's mandate.

I think there is this tendency that I don't think is healthy for public figures to wear religion on their sleeve as a means to insulate themselves from criticism, or dialogue with people who disagree with them.

FALSANI:
The conversation stopper, when you say you're a Christian and leave it at that.

OBAMA:
Where do you move forward with that?

This is something that I'm sure I'd have serious debates with my fellow Christians about. I think that the difficult thing about any religion, including Christianity, is that at some level there is a call to evangelize and prostelytize. There's the belief, certainly in some quarters, that people haven't embraced Jesus Christ as their personal savior that they're going to hell.

FALSANI:
You don't believe that?

OBAMA:
I find it hard to believe that my God would consign four-fifths of the world to hell.

I can't imagine that my God would allow some little Hindu kid in India who never interacts with the Christian faith to somehow burn for all eternity.

That's just not part of my religious makeup.

Part of the reason I think it's always difficult for public figures to talk about this is that the nature of politics is that you want to have everybody like you and project the best possible traits onto you. Oftentimes that's by being as vague as possible, or appealing to the lowest common denominators. The more specific and detailed you are on issues as personal and fundamental as your faith, the more potentially dangerous it is.

FALSANI:
Do you ever have people who know you're a Christian question a particular stance you take on an issue, how can you be a Christian and ...

OBAMA:
Like the right to choose.

I haven't been challenged in those direct ways. And to that extent, I give the public a lot of credit. I'm always stuck by how much common sense the American people have. They get confused sometimes, watch FoxNews or listen to talk radio. That's dangerous sometimes. But generally, Americans are tolerant and I think recognize that faith is a personal thing, and they may feel very strongly about an issue like abortion or gay marriage, but if they discuss it with me as an elected official they will discuss it with me in those terms and not, say, as 'you call yourself a Christian.' I cannot recall that ever happening.

FALSANI:
Do you get questions about your faith?

OBAMA:
Obviously as an African American politician rooted in the African American community, I spend a lot of time in the black church. I have no qualms in those settings in participating fully in those services and celebrating my God in that wonderful community that is the black church.

(he pauses)
But I also try to be . . . Rarely in those settings do people come up to me and say, what are your beliefs. They are going to presume, and rightly so. Although they may presume a set of doctrines that I subscribe to that I don't necessarily subscribe to.

But I don't think that's unique to me. I think that each of us when we walk into our church or mosque or synagogue are interpreting that experience in different ways, are reading scriptures in different ways and are arriving at our own understanding at different ways and in different phases.

I don't know a healthy congregation or an effective minister who doesn't recognize that.

If all it took was someone proclaiming I believe Jesus Christ and that he died for my sins, and that was all there was to it, people wouldn't have to keep coming to church, would they.

FALSANI:
Do you believe in heaven?

OBAMA:
Do I believe in the harps and clouds and wings?

FALSANI:
A place spiritually you go to after you die?

OBAMA:
What I believe in is that if I live my life as well as I can, that I will be rewarded. I don't presume to have knowledge of what happens after I die. But I feel very strongly that whether the reward is in the here and now or in the hereafter, the aligning myself to my faith and my values is a good thing.

When I tuck in my daughters at night and I feel like I've been a good father to them, and I see in them that I am transferring values that I got from my mother and that they're kind people and that they're honest people, and they're curious people, that's a little piece of heaven.

FALSANI:
Do you believe in sin?

OBAMA:
Yes.

FALSANI:
What is sin?

OBAMA:
Being out of alignment with my values.

FALSANI:
What happens if you have sin in your life?

OBAMA:
I think it's the same thing as the question about heaven. In the same way that if I'm true to myself and my faith that that is its own reward, when I'm not true to it, it's its own punishment.

FALSANI:
Where do you find spiritual inspiration? Music, nature, literature, people, a conduit you plug into?

OBAMA:
There are so many.

Nothing is more powerful than the black church experience. A good choir and a good sermon in the black church, it's pretty hard not to be move and be transported.

I can be transported by watching a good performance of Hamlet, or reading Toni Morrison's Song of Solomon, or listening to Miles Davis.

FALSANI:
Is there something that you go back to as a touchstone, a book, a particular piece of music, a place ...

OBAMA:
As I said before, in my own sort of mental library, the Civil Rights movement has a powerful hold on me. It's a point in time where I think heaven and earth meet. Because it's a moment in which a collective faith transforms everything. So when I read Gandhi or I read King or I read certain passages of Abraham Lincoln and I think about those times where people's values are tested, I think those inspire me.

FALSANI:
What are you doing when you feel the most centered, the most aligned spiritually?

OBAMA:
I think I already described it. It's when I'm being true to myself. And that can happen in me making a speech or it can happen in me playing with my kids, or it can happen in a small interaction with a security guard in a building when I'm recognizing them and exchanging a good word.

FALSANI:
Is there someone you would look to as an example of how not to do it?

OBAMA:
Bin Laden.

(grins broadly)

FALSANI:
... An example of a role model, who combined everything you said you want to do in your life, and your faith?

OBAMA:
I think Gandhi is a great example of a profoundly spiritual man who acted and risked everything on behalf of those values but never slipped into intolerance or dogma. He seemed to always maintain an air of doubt about him.

I think Dr. King, and Lincoln. Those three are good examples for me of people who applied their faith to a larger canvas without allowing that faith to metasticize into something that is hurtful.

FALSANI:
Can we go back to that morning service in 1987 or 88 -- when you have a moment that you can go back to that as an epiphany...

OBAMA:
It wasn't an epiphany.

It was much more of a gradual process for me. I know there are some people who fall out. Which is wonderful. God bless them. For me it was probably because there is a certain self-consciousness that I possess as somebody with probably too much book learning, and also a very polyglot background.

FALSANI:
It wasn't like a moment where you finally got it? It was a symbol of that decision?

OBAMA:
Exactly. I think it was just a moment to certify or publicly affirm a growing faith in me.

-END-