One of the intriguing issues of Ramayana is that it says that Rama ruled for 11,000 years. His father Dasaratha also was said to have lived for 60,000 years. Information like this makes the 'rational' one dismiss the very history of Rama.
There is nothing irrational or fictional about it if we know some basics of Time computation in olden days.
First of all, the basic life term for any man is 100 years and it is the wish of any blessing in Vedic parlance.
The blessings given by elders when one prostrates is of Vedic origin (of satya yuga). It is "Shatamaanam bhavathi shataayu: purusha:…" to invoke 100 years of life for the one so blessed. This blessing is repeated in several places in the Upanishads too.
When one performs the daily midday supplication (noon part of Sandhyavndana), the individual prays to the sun when he is in full bloom that he may be blessed to see him for a full life of nearly 100 years. ("PashyEma sharada: shatham… jIvEma sharada: shatham.. etc ) The prayer is for 100 years and this prayer also has its origin in Vedic yuga.
Brahma devan is said to live for 100 years in his time scale. Therefore 100 is the standard year duration for longevity. Since man is at a micro cosmic scale of the Cosmic god Brahma, and though man's life is shaped by the influence of each of the nine planets which runs into a total period of 120 years, this span is roughly around 100 years only.
When the maximum life span of man is expected to be 100 years, why did they say that Rama lived for 11,000 years? Did Rama live for so many years?
No. In Ramayana itself we come across a reference to a maximum life span of 100 years only.
In Sundhara khandam (sargam 34), on seeing that Hanuman has come to redeem her distress, Sita says, " yethi jivantha aanandham naram varshashathadhabhi." (If only a person were to live for a 100 years, he would sure have 'aanandham' sometime even after a 100 years.) Here 'if only a person lives for a 100 years 'make it clear that the average life span of a person in Threta yuga (Sita's times) was not in 1000s of years- but only to a maximum of 100 years!
If so, why the talk of life of 1000s of years?
This can be interpreted in two ways – one by the way of Time (Yuga) calculation used in those days and another the philosophical way.
The Yuga calculation:-
There are 10 types of calculation of time of which the Chatur yuga calculation is one.
In Jyothisha sastra, a text is identified by means of Time calculation used.
Any Siddhantic text will start from Kalpa. The author of a Siddhanta will have to mention the time of his text in the broader concept of Time starting from Kalpa. This is to say that if you happen to read a text referring to the time of writing counted from Kalpa, then know that what you are reading is a Siddhantic grantha.
Similarly any grantha on Tantra will have references to the Yuga in which it was written or about which (the Yuga), the principles are given. Aryabhateeyam is a Tantra grantha, because the author gives the time of writing counted from the beginning of the nearest Yuga, namely Kali yuga.
Similarly any Karana grantha will talk about time starting from the nearest Shaka (Vaikrama or Shalivahana).
It is all about the context in which the yugas are discussed.
Again the very term Yuga is used in various ways.
In any Vedic rirual, the term Yuga refers to the 5-year duration or 5-year Yuga and not the chatur yuga.
Each year of this Yuga is given a name as Samvatsara, Parivatsara, Idavatsara, Anuvatsara and Idvatsara. This was the basic classification used in daily life. At the same time the Maha yugas are also used in the context of worship to devas and pitrus. That is on galactic scale and measured in terms of planetary movement. The details of that are given in Siddhanta texts. The basis of that is the solar year.
However for religious purposes the year was reckoned from Uttarayana, the details of which are found in Rig Vedanga Jyothisha. Jupiter was the basis of that counting
12 rounds of 5 years (60 years) make one yuga in Jupiter cycle.
Each of the 5 years is known as a Yuga of Jupiter and 12 Yugas of Jupiter make 60 years named after Prabhava, Vibhava etc., but starting from Vijaya.
Thus we find two types of time-reckoning in the Vedic society in those days - one, solar year based Siddhantic time which incorporate Chatur Maha Yugas counted for a day of Brahma (Kalpa) and another, the Jupiter Yuga of 60 years whose basic unit is 5 year Yuga for religious austerities.
Today this system of 60 years is used for solar years. In absence of adherence to Vedic way of life we have given up 5 year Yuga of Jupiter cycle, but use the year names of the Jupiter cycle. We continue to use the two in any religious activity. We start from Siddhantic Kalpa and continue with the year name and Ayana (of 5 year Yuga) and the subsequent smaller divisions of time.
12 rounds of 5 years (60 years) make one yuga in Jupiter cycle.
Each of the 5 years is known as a Yuga of Jupiter and 12 Yugas of Jupiter make 60 years named after Prabhava, Vibhava etc., but starting from Vijaya.
Thus we find two types of time-reckoning in the Vedic society in those days - one, solar year based Siddhantic time which incorporate Chatur Maha Yugas counted for a day of Brahma (Kalpa) and another, the Jupiter Yuga of 60 years whose basic unit is 5 year Yuga for religious austerities.
Today this system of 60 years is used for solar years. In absence of adherence to Vedic way of life we have given up 5 year Yuga of Jupiter cycle, but use the year names of the Jupiter cycle. We continue to use the two in any religious activity. We start from Siddhantic Kalpa and continue with the year name and Ayana (of 5 year Yuga) and the subsequent smaller divisions of time.
A basic feature of the 5 year yuga is that it is a twin - an ascending two and a half years and a descending two and a half years. This is enumerated on the basis of the meeting point of the Sun and the moon once they start from a same point. In two and a half years the Moon goes an extra month. So it is expunged as an Adhika masa by which the next month starts at the same point both in solar and lunar cycle.
The very word Yuga means twin. The 5 year duration is a Yuga because it has an ascending and descending phase of time as reckoned from the sun and the moon.
Even the Siddhantic Yuga is a twin. One may recall the sankalpa mantra stating 'Kali yuge Pratame Paade' which refers to the 1st paada of Kali yuga (called Utsarpini) which is the 1st half of Kali Yuga. So there are two padas in Kali Yuga. It must have been so for the other Yugas too (Krita, Treta and Dwapara)
Even the Siddhantic Yuga is a twin. One may recall the sankalpa mantra stating 'Kali yuge Pratame Paade' which refers to the 1st paada of Kali yuga (called Utsarpini) which is the 1st half of Kali Yuga. So there are two padas in Kali Yuga. It must have been so for the other Yugas too (Krita, Treta and Dwapara)
In Jyothisha, even rasis are referred to as Yugma rasis. Yugma is derived from the word, Yuga which means two sided.
Anything two sided is a yuga. And time is perceived to be a twin - up and down, ascending and descending.
The basic unit of Time is a day. And a day has a day time and an opposite of it, namely night time.
The basic unit of Time is a day. And a day has a day time and an opposite of it, namely night time.
Therefore the day and the night forms a Yuga - i.e., Ahoratra is a yuga.
The Ayanas (Uttarayana and Dakshinayana) also constitute a yuga.
In this context, there is a padhati "Ahoreva samvatsar" It means - the day-night (Ahoratra) form a year because the year also is a Yuga formed by 2 ayanas with Uttarayana as the day time and Dakshinayana as the night time.
Let me quote the authority for this from Mahabharata.
By the 13th day of the Exile period, Bheema told Yudhisthira that 13 days are equal to 13 years for one who is steadfast in his observance of vows of the Vedic life. Since Yudhishthira was leading such life he can be said to have completed 13 years.
Mahabharata, Vana parva – section 52
By the 13th day of the Exile period, Bheema told Yudhisthira that 13 days are equal to 13 years for one who is steadfast in his observance of vows of the Vedic life. Since Yudhishthira was leading such life he can be said to have completed 13 years.
Mahabharata, Vana parva – section 52
Bheema to Yudhishtira:-
O Bharata, it is, also said by those versed in morality that one day and night is, O great prince, equal unto a full year. The Veda text also, exalted one, is often heard, signifying that a year is equivalent to a day when passed in the observance of certain difficult vows. O thou of unfading glory, if the Vedas are an authority with thee, regard thou the period of a day and something more as the equivalent of thirteen years.
Mahabharata - 3-49
Mahabharata - 3-49
ahorātraṃ mahārāja tulyaṃ saṃvatsareṇa hi
22 tathaiva veda vacanaṃ śrūyate nityadā vibho
saṃvatsaro mahārāja pūrṇo bhavati kṛcchrataḥ
23 yadi vedāḥ pramāṇaṃ te divasād ūrdhvam acyuta
trayodaśa samāḥ kālo jñāyatāṃ pariniṣṭhitaḥ )
Every day a person is born anew with the sunrise. Coming to live to see the next sunrise is like having finished one year and starting another year. That is the import.
If we consider the most basic classification of Ahoreva samvatsar,
each day is a samvatsar or a year.
If we say that Rama ruled for 11,000 years, according to this calculation,
he had ruled for 31 years!! (11000 / 360 on the premise that the sun moves at the rate of 1 degree a day)
Look at Rama's life. From Sita's version in Sundhara kanda we know that Rama went on Vanavasa in his 25th year.
25+ 14 years in exile = 39.
He ascended the throne on his 39th year.
If he is to have ruled for 11,000 years, then according to Ahoreva samvatsar, it comes to 31 years.
Add 31 years to 39 when he ascended the throne.
That means he ruled till his 70th year!
This is how we have to interpret.
Rama was not alone in terms of 1000s of years of life, even the Pandyan King "Maakeerthi" (who presided over the Assembly where Tol Kappiayam was inaugurated) was praised as having ruled the kingdom for 24,000 years which means he was on throne for 66 to 67 years.
Rama's father Dasaratha was said to have lived for 60,000 years. This is just beyond any calculation, but this was told to express his old age. Rama was a late child and Dasaratha was very much older when Rama was ready for throne. A phenomenal number of age was given to Dasaratha to drive home the point that he was already old. If such age is to be taken in face value, then his wives also must have lived for tens of thousands of years, but nowhere it is told so.
Similarly all the three brothers of Rama were born around the same time and left the world around the same time. If it is true that Rama lived for 11,000 years then his brothers also must have lived for so long. But that is not being told anywhere.
Therefore we have to use our discriminatory sense of perception and interpretation while dealing with such intriguing references or passages, impossible to reason out . While interpreting the past we have to bear in mind the age of the earth and age of life for which we have Surya Siddhanta guidance. If we are to take the meaning as we know it on face value in our limited perception, then we will be in for wrong conclusions. Not only that, we will be also making this vast body of knowledge of Veadanta and Vedanga put into ridicule.
Philosophical way of calculation:-
In Ramayana, Narada tells Valmilki
"raamo raajyam upaasitvaa " - Rama rajyam for 11,000 years.
"raamo raajyam upaasitvaa " - Rama rajyam for 11,000 years.
What does this mean?
" dasha varSa sahasraaNi dasha varSa shataani ca |
raamo raajyam upaasitvaa brahma lokam prayaasyati || " (1-1-97)
97. dasha+varSa+sahasraaNi= ten, years, thousand; dasa+varsha+sataani+ca= ten, years, hundred, also; raamaH= Rama; raajyam+upaasitvaa= kingdom, on reverencing; brahma+ lokam+gamishhyati= Brahma's abode, voyages.
"On reverencing the kingdom for ten thousand years plus another one thousand years, [i.e. for a total of eleven thousand years,] Rama voyages to the abode of Brahma... [1-1-97]
Comment: In rama raajyam upaasitvaa... the word used is upaasana is not ruling by sceptre but 'reverentially idolised the kingdom...' as one would regard or treat his personal god with reverence. Rama thus reverenced his kingdom as a devotee of his subjects and this is the concept of raama raajya.
The commentary above puts the entire issue in a different perspective!!
Raama established Raama rajyam for 10,000 + 1000 years after which He left for His Abode.
Raama rajyam stands for Raama's ideals in different spheres of life and governance. Even at the time of Vaali vadam it is said that since the entire earth was under Ikshvahu hold, Raama was bound to establish its dharma by slaying Vaali. It is well known that the entire land mass was not under Ikshvahu dynasty. This implies that the dharma, the ideals and the value systems which the dynasty stood for, were followed throughout the land mass. In that way, Rama Rajya dharma will live for 11,000 years.
It is often told that Raama's story will live as long as Himalayas and the Ganga will live. Rama Rajyam or Rama's memory will be there till Ganga flows. Perhaps Ganga will flow for 11,000 years after Rama's birth!! Today scientists accept that Ganga will vanish one day. We find reference to this in other olden texts too.
It is often told that Raama's story will live as long as Himalayas and the Ganga will live. Rama Rajyam or Rama's memory will be there till Ganga flows. Perhaps Ganga will flow for 11,000 years after Rama's birth!! Today scientists accept that Ganga will vanish one day. We find reference to this in other olden texts too.
Rama-Rajya dharma will live as long as Ganga flows in this land.
56 comments:
superb explanation
hats off...
Jayasree,
If entire earth was under Rama's rule or Ikshvaku dynasty's rule, WHY did Rama perform the Ashwamedha Gayam ???
Isn't Ashwamedha Yagam done to expand the kingdom by either convincing or fighting the kingdoms which the horse travels!
thanks,
-mickey
It is rule of Ikshvaku dharma.
Even today the States of India may have different ways of functioning. But the entire India is bound by Ram Rajya dharma.
You are completely wrong my dear..
In satya yuga starting days, a man's life 1,00,000 years.. due to yuga dharmas, a man's life decays when time passes away..till the end of treta yuga.. a man's life became in thousands of years..Dasharatha lived up to 60,000 years.. not 16,000..there fore rama lived 11,000 years. when it comes to dwapara yuga, a man's life decayed to hundreds of years..lord kirshna lived 125 years and dharma raja lived 210 years..when time enterd to kali yuga, a man's live decayed to below 100 years..do u know 1 thing?? at the end of kali yuga, a man's life will be atmost 16 years..
I tend to agree with rahavendra. no reason, it is just convincing. though the science and modern medicine increased the average age of man (thanks to reduction in infant deaths) the life span of a man is decaying. I will not be surprised if by end of KAliyuga, the life span reduced to 16 years. By the way, Raghavendra.... can you quote references for your points, please - Ramoji
Good Discussion:
I have few doubts as to when this kaliyuga will end and, a new life starts on earth again??
@ Raghavebdra, Ramoji and GuNNer,
There are many articles already written by me in this blogspot where you could find answers for your questions.
May be I can give the links to those articles.
http://jayasreesaranathan.blogspot.in/2011/01/on-yuga-classification-and-what-causes.html
http://jayasreesaranathan.blogspot.in/2008/04/rama-in-treta-yuga-yuga-is-defined-on.html
http://jayasreesaranathan.blogspot.in/2008/03/ram-sethu-issues-on-volcanism-and-yuga.html
On when will our world cease to exist:-
http://jayasreesaranathan.blogspot.in/2008/04/when-will-solar-system-end-from-science.html
I request Mr GuNNEr to read them and know the yuga timings and when the change occurs for human life.
Mr Raghavendra had written about the duration of man's life in different yugas. When we read such passages we must write with caution and analyse the inner import also. I have written on that issue in the 6th part of a series I wrote on date of Rama's times which I wrote in 2004 in a yahoo group. The link is given here:-
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Oppiliappan/message/7506
I am reproducing it below.
(cont'd)
The life span of people in different yugas are said to run in thousands of years.
In his description of Jambhoo dweepa , Sanjaya says that people of Satya yuga lived for 4000 years, those of Thretha yuga for 3000 years and those of Dwapara yuga for 2000 thousand. But while talking about people of Kali yuga, he gives a mixed outlook. He says that there is no limit for the life span for the people of Kali yuga. Some are born dead and some die after birth. And there are those born to live with ‘maha satvam’ and great valour. They multiply in hundreds and thousands.
This description was given by Sanjaya after he looks at distant lands at distant time periods with Doora dhrushti.
We find here the 4:3:2 ratio with reference to the first 3 yugas and a not-too-clear vision of Kali yuga. By implication and continuity of the previous yugas, the life span in Kali yuga must be 1000 years. This makes the calculation complete as 4:3:2:1.
But going by what he says about progeny, we seem to get a clue. It is impossible for a human being to live for 1000s of years. It might be possible in a different universe with people formed of different cellular formations. But the kind of evolution of species in this earth rule out such existence. Since progeny is being talked about Kali people, it may be assumed that any particular race or generation of people will last for so many number of years. In Kali yuga there is no certainty that all people will live 1000 years long by way of their progeny. (A man is born as his son, so goes a dictum in our texts). The lineage might get cut short, is the implication.
(cont'd)
Another way to look at it is that the name and fame of a person in the respective yugas will live on for so many thousands of years. Raama’s story seem to imply this. In his concluding words in the Pattabhishka chapter, Valmiki speaks of Raama ruling the world for 11,000 years. In the beginning too, Narada while narrating the story of Raama to Valmiki says like this.
“ dasha varSa sahasraaNi dasha varSa shataani ca |
raamo raajyam upaasitvaa brahma lokam prayaasyati || “ (1-1-97)
97. dasha+varSa+sahasraaNi= ten, years, thousand; dasa+varsha+sataani+ca= ten, years, hundred, also; raamaH= Rama; raajyam+upaasitvaa= kingdom, on reverencing; brahma+ lokam+gamishhyati= Brahma's abode, voyages.
"On reverencing the kingdom for ten thousand years plus another one thousand years, [i.e. for a total of eleven thousand years,] Rama voyages to the abode of Brahma... [1-1-97]
Comment: In rama raajyam upaasitvaa... the word used is upaasana is not ruling by sceptre but 'reverentially idolised the kingdom...' as one would regard or treat his personal god with reverence. Rama thus reverenced his kingdom as a devotee of his subjects and this is the concept of raama raajya.
The commentary above puts the entire issue in a different perspective!!
Raama established Raama rajyam for 10,000 + 1000 years after which He left for His Abode. Raama rajyam stands for Raama’s ideals in different spheres of life and governance. Even at the time of Vali vadam it is said that since the entire earth was under Ikshvahu hold, Raama was bound to establish its dharma by slaying Vaali. It is well known that the entire land mass was not under Ikshvahu dynasty. The implication was that the dharma, the ideals and values systems which the dynasty stood for , was followed throughout the land mass.
A similar prevalence of Raama’s ideals is bound to exist till 4098 AD. Perhaps after that, there might take place a further deterioration. It is said at many places in the texts that Raama’s story will live as long as Himalayas and the Ganga live. Perhaps the Ganga might vanish at or around 4098 AD like how the river Saraswathi of the Vedic age vanished. (There is proof now that this river did indeed exist and was the hub of growth of Vedic civilisation, perhaps in Satya yuga). The vanishing of the Ganga is possible since Bhagirathan is supposed to bring her down in Satya yuga, in the next cycle. (I am not sure about the time period). Perhaps the ganga will dry up in Thretha yuga of the night duration of the mini yuga and might get enclosed at higher levels in the Himalayas..
(cont'd)
The strong indicators for believing that the life span in those days could not have been in thousands but within or around a hundred are as follows:
Ø Brahma devan is said to live for 100 years in his time scale. Therefore 100 is the standard year duration for longevity. Since man is at a micro cosmic scale of the Cosmic god Brahma, and since man’s life is shaped by the influence of each of the nine planets which runs into a total period of 120 years as calculated by sage Parashara in the Vedas and Ithihasas, this span is roughly around 100 years.
Ø The blessings given by elders when one prostrates is of Vedic origin (of satya yuga). It is (“Shatamaanam bhavathi shataayu: purusha:…”) to invoke 100 years of life for the one so blessed. This blessing is repeated in several places in the Upanishads too.
Ø When one performs the daily midday supplication, the individual prays to the sun when he is in full bloom that he may be blessed to see him for a full life of nearly 100 years. (“PashyEma sharada: shatham… jIvEma sharada: shatham.. etc ) This prayer also has its origin in Vedic yuga.
Ø We can quote an example from Ramayana itself. In Sundhara khandam (sargam 34) On seeing that Raama dhoothan has come to redeem her distress, Sita says, “ yethi jivantha aanandham naram varshashathadhabhi.” (If only a person were to live for a 100 years, he would sure have ‘aanandham’ sometime even after a 100 years.) Here ‘if only a person lives for a 100 years ‘ make it clear that the average life span of a person in Thretha yuga had not been in 1000s of years.
Ø But that it has been said so, can be understood in the way it has to be, if we look into an episode involving sages Vasishta and Vishwamithra. They once had an argument regarding which is superior - sat-sangam or years of tapas. Vasishta said it was sat-sangam while Vishwamithra said it was years of tapas or meditation. They went to meet Adhisesha who was carrying the World on his shoulder, to settle this issue. He said how he could solve this issue when he was carrying a heavy burden. For this, Vishwamithra said that he would give 16,000 years of his tapas to support the weight and did give. But the world could not be held aloft. Vasishta gave a second of satsangam and Adhisesha was relieved of the weight. But since Adhisesah continued to remain quiet, Vishwamithra asked impatiently why he was not giving his solution, for which sesha replied that reply was already given. While a second of sat-sangam was able to hold the world, 16,000 years of tapas could not!
We have our lessons in this. Counting of years rarely matter. It is about what you gather by being in the company of good people (this includes all that imparts goodness, including knowledge acquired by reading etc). What one does in a 100 year life span must be worthy of lasting for 1000s of years. That is what happened to people (sages) of Staya yuga.
At another level, what we gain in an entire life time may be had in few years’ satsangam. By sat sangam, we, in this age of Kali may gain values and knowledge that can otherwise be got in 1000 years. Such is the greatness of satsangam. Such is the implication of living for long!
But the true nature of this is something which even Maharishis may not have known. Bhagawan conveys this in BG 10-2 – “ Neither the host of gods nor the great seers know my Prabhavam.” This word, prabhavam, connotes various meanings at various levels but suffice it to say that the way of His creation at the bottom-most layer of yuga classification is something that is bound to be as ever – a mystery
@Jayashree,Anonymous...
My dear friends.. If you want proofs regarding my points refer brahmanda purana, padma purana and bhavishya purana.. there many points discussed regarding different yugas and discussion of sages...If u don't believe that, Lord Hanuman and vibheeshan are still alive. so u don't believe this also?
Ms. Jayashree I posted my comments before 4 months- in the month of Aug which were written with deep study & with references from scriptures. But these commnets are not enrolled yet.... may I know the reason? kindly allow the freedom of speech. I am expecting the reply from you?
@ Rajesh Baser,
Kindly resend. I don't see any comment from your name in the comment-edit page.
isnt keikeiy stupid to ask rama to go on vanvas for 14 years when he would actually live for 11000 years,she should have asked for 5000-6000 years vanvas
14 years isnt even near 1% of 11000 years
@ jayashree , Ragevendra and all
What Ragavendra said is aboslutely and cent % true. The avg age was 100000 in sat yuga, 10000 in Treta yuga, 1000 in Dwapar yuga and 100-120 in kaliyuga. Infact Kaliyuga will get further worser after the 10,000 year golden period ends as foretold by bhagavan krishna in bhagvad gita. Once the 10,000 year period ends the full force of kali would take place for the rest approx 4 lakhs years. The world will be full of adharma and attrocities and devoid of any social reformer. There wont be any krishna devotess on earth or any Mahaan spreading the spiritual consiusness among people. Forget about everything no God's name will be known to public and everyone will run for physical and materialistic pleasures in life. The life would be a nightmare on earth till the 4th quarter of kaliyuga and then Kalki bhagavan will come and destroy all the bad omens. If somebody wants proof here is a short paragraph from bhavishya purana which can be found in Kanchi kamakoti's website. See the next comment for the link and a short note of it.
link: http://www.kamakoti.org/kamakoti/bhavishya/bookview.php?chapnum=31
31 Kali Yuga’s second, third and fourth quarters and Avatara of Kalki
Suta Maha Muni told Shaunaka and other Munis that as Mlecchhas gained victory over the Dharmic Shaktis gradually Kali Yuga Devi was satisfied. Daityas who were stage managing the victory of Mlecchhas then constructed several ‘Jalayanas’ or Sea borne vessels to Harikhanda (China) where men were very strong as Devas intially but in course of a few years the ‘Maya Yuddha’ or the cunning and deceitful battles in which Daityas were well known the Harikhanda residents appealed to Mahendra for protection. Indra asked Vishvakarma to reinvent a ‘Yantra’ (Machine) by which persons of one part of the World would not be able to travel to another part. On receiving the hint Vishwakarma created a ‘Bhrami-Yantra’ by using which persons of one ‘Khanda’ or chunk of a Large Region could not freely travel to another ‘Khanda’ and also a kind of ‘Vatsya’ or a less potent Maha Vayu. This Vatsya would destroy Daityas, Yakshas and Piscachas and would protect the honest and Dharmic Brahmanas. This Vatsya gave shelter to all the Brahmans and other upright persons for a number of Years. This situation that enabled good persons was most unpalatable to Kali Yuga Devi and approached Daitya Raja Bali. Then Bali and Kalki Devi approached Narayana in the form of ‘Vamana’who in turn enabled a Brahmana called Kama Sharma and his wife Devahuti on the banks of Yamuna River; he blessed that this couple would give birth to Bhoga Simha and Keli Simha. These two sons would stay in a Kreedavati Nagar and would carry out the wishes of Kali Yuga Devi, especially in the task of wide-spread ‘Varna-sankara’ or destroying the Rules of ‘Varnashrama. Over two thousand years, the established Regulations made by Lord Brahma and the successive Manus would get thinner and thinner and by the Second Paada of Kali Yuga, Kali Devata would be happy to witness that the old Vedic values would be obliterated, that the Daityamaya human beings (fully soaked in Daitya activities) would be of two-and-half feet height, that their life span would be forty years maximum (as against hundred years now) and that they would be free like birds without any ‘Karmic regulations! At the end of the Kali’s second half there would neither by the institutions of marriages, nor Kingships, nor any social reformer and not even a Karma Karta! The World would be full of the progeny of Bhogi Simha and Keli Simha ane this kind of a situation devoid of customs and social norms woud prevail for one and quarter lakh years!! In the Third Quarter of Kali Yuga, the average age of human beings would be twenty six years maximum; Bhringha Muni along with his wife Saurabhi would create Kaulakalpa-named beings who would not hesitate to eat human beings/ kinnaras. These new species of Kaulakalpas would resort to beastly affairs with mothers, sisters and daughters! They would be too lustful and produce too many children and resort to affairs with co-males and animals! In the fourth phase of Kali Yuga the maximum age of humans would not exceed tewnty years and live like water-beasts and animals; hells like Tamistra and worse kinds of frightening Places of Retribution would be over-populated.
As Yama Dharma Raja found that the influx of dead Beings was assuming alarming proportions, he and Chitra Gupta approached Indra Deva and later on to Brahma Deva and the latter declared that soon enough there would be an ‘Avatar’ (Incarnation) of Vishnu Deva as Kalki Deva; he would be fully armed with ‘Kahdga’ (Long sword) whose reach would be unimaginably long and widespread as also with a ‘Kavacha’ (Body-Cover) and ‘Dhaal’or Protective Shield, mounted on a huge horse, travelling on ‘Yoga Marga’ for sixteen thousand years and would turn the entire ‘Srishti’ to ash-laden devastation! At that time, there would be a cloud burst producing the Great Annihilation of the Universe under alarming and incessant rain called ‘Pralaya’! That would be the fresh ‘Srishti’heralding the new cycle of Yugas ab initio!!
@ Jayasree and all
As Ragavendra pointed out Hanuman is alive on earth along with Lord parausrama who is also an avatar of Lord Vishnu. They both are one of the Chirangivis of Hinduism. Hanumanji can be seen in most places where Ramkatha is going on. Tulsidas the great person who composd the Great Hanuman Chalisa and who was said to be an incarnation of Valmiki could see hanuman in varnasi and it is the place where sankat mochan hanuman temple stands. Hanuman was identiied by tulsidas who was in disguise of a old man. Lord parasurama is said to be in the himalayas mediaiting and is waiting for Kalki(10th and final avatar of Lord Vishnu)which will come in the distant Kaliyuga after around 4 lakhs from now. Kaliyuga a length of 432000 years of which only 5115 years have passed till now. Kali yuga started on midnight at 00:00 of 18th Feb 3102 BC, it was 17th of feb when lord krishna left this material world to his own spiritual abode. The effects of kali were held back till bhagavan krishna left this world due to his tremendous spiritual power. Lord Parasurama will become the Guru for Lord Kalki and will instruct and teach him to observe severe penance to obtain the celestial weapon from Lord Shiva to bring about the final annihalation of the Univerese!!!
These things have no evidence, only sayings from purana, as such it cannot be relied. No other supporting evidence exists. Not tallying with any concept in science.
These have no scientific basis. All based on epic only.
@ Narayan
You can be a Nastigan to believe such things. Kaliyugam is bound to have people like you denying the very existence of God !!!! If you have even read the Bhagvad Gita with your heart and soul such Nastigam thoughts would have left you and you would have become eishwara swarup. Plz do not post such Nastigam comments here and, do not tell anything about our Rama. Science does not matter at all Kaliyugam is a maya yugam and, bound to have people not beleiving in the ultimate paramaat
There are only 2500 years more for the world to come to an end.
In Satya yuga starting days, a man's life 1,00,000 years.. due to decline of Dharma, a man's life decays when time passes away..till the end of treta yuga.. a man's life became in thousands of years..Dasharatha lived up to 60,000 years.. not 16,000..there fore Rama ruled 11,000 years. when it comes to dwapara yuga, a man's life decayed to hundreds of years..lord Krishna lived 126 years and Dharma raja lived 210 years..when time entered to kali yuga, a man's live decayed to below 100 years..do u know 1 thing?? at the end of kali yuga, a man's life will be almost 20-16 years..
Jayasree ji,
My warm compliments on your passionate scholarship, inspired energy and interests on diverse subjects. I also agree that Time can seem relative (as Vasishta-Vishwamitra-Adisesha story illustrates) but even in relative time, we look for consistency. your post came very close to answering many fundamental questions but has yet thrown a few more in its wake.
1. If we explain Rama's 11,000 as equal to 31 years (citing Ahoreva samvatsar), we will need to use the same Ahovera calculation for his Vanavasa and childhood. Thus 14 years of Vanavasa would have to be calculated as a few days at the most in Ahovera yardstick!!
2. Again, if Rama's 11,000 = 100 (approx), it implies that Dasharatha's 60,000 = almost 600...
No doubt, there are deeper issues that we are still missing out on. Regards, Ravikiran
There was frog living in well ...For him well was the whole world... from his perspective he was right... because frog wants to stick with his well ...either frog did not know about Huge Ocean out there OR frog knew about it but frog never felt to move from well...
Frog---->Spiritually confuse person
Well---->Spiritual knowledge one has
Huge Ocean ----> True God's Knowledge
http://www.jw.org
According to Hindu Holy Scripture Shrimad Bhagvat Gita Lord Krishna would incartnate as "Kalki" at the end of Kalyuga.As per the calculations and an article printed in the one of the leading newspaper (in the terms of English calender)Lord Krishna would take birth between 2030-2035.And connecting these incident to the great French apothecary and fortune teller Nostradamus WW3 would take place around 2060 i.e.end of Kalyuga.
(the above post is only based on personal assumptions and calculations and does not mean to harm,scare or belief etc.to anybody.)
jai shree Ram
That Dasaratha lived for 60,000 yrs and Rama ruled for 11000 yrs are all nonsense.The human genes does not allow such long life so, cleverly it is explained inyuga time scale that Rama ruled for only31 yrs. He did not live even to be hundred. If the same scale is used Dasaradha must havelived for 180 days which is nonsense. Valmiki was given to exaggeration. Think of the reception he gives to the army of Bharata when they visitedhis Asram. If Dasaradhas life at 60, 000 accep-ted he must he must have lived prior to stone age like an animal. Funnily , his Balya must have been for 15000 yrs, kaumara 15000, youth150000 etc. When did he strt ageing It is high time this kind of guess work is given up . After all they are mythologies and full of fanciful imaginations. No more sanctity be given to them..
@ D.G. Ramarao,
We can not reject Ramayana as a myth or a fanciful imagination, just because we don't know / understand the enormous times attributed to the life of Rama or Dasharatha. Ramayana happened long ago (in my reckoning 7000 yrs BP - the justifications you can read in my many blogs by searching this blog)that we don't know the kind of expressions or the customary adulation done in those times. Even as late as the 7th century AD, the Tamil scholar by name Nachinarkiniyar wrote in his commentary on the Sangam age Grammar book 'Tholkappiyam' that Tholkappiyam was inaugurated in the court of Pandyan king "Maakeerthi" who ruled for 24,000 years!!
Tholkappiyam is not a myth. The commentator had lived comparatively recently as 1300 years ago. But he has said that the King had lived for 24,000 years. Should we think that he was unreasonable and stupid to make such a recording? On the contrary we must understand that there had existed a system of years to express the rule and life of great kings in such high numbers. That was explained in my article above.
We can get further concurrence from Sangam age text 'PadhiRRu-p-patthu' wherein the poet "Perum kundroor kizhar" says that one day in the king's life is equal to 1 month; One month is equal to one year; One year is equal to One 'OOzhi", One OOzhi is equal to one "Vella-Varambu". I don't know the number denoted by OOzhi. But Vellam- varambu means 10 to the power 20 years! So a king can be expected to have lived for 10 to the power of 20 years by this expression of praise.
These are all poetic rights, but it is understood that it was common place talk to use this expression while talking about the good kings. People have talked about Dasharatha as having lived for 60,0000 years and Rama's rule for 11,000 years or Maakeerthi's rule for 24,000 years in a sense like this. Our lack of knowledge of the traditions of those times must not make us lose sight of the historicity of Rama.
Jai Hanuman. Unique Explanation. Regards,
hanuman chalisa
How many years did ram and sita lived together??
How many years Rama and Sita lived together?
As per her version given to Hanuman in Ashoka vana she was married for 12 years before coronation was announced by Dasharatha. On the 13th year the coronation was planned but ended up in the exile of Rama for 14 years. So it is 12 + 14 = 26 years till they came back and were anointed as King and queen. Only upto this Yuddha khanda says. In Uttara khanda, the sequence of events show that by winter after they came back (in summer / Chaitra), Sita started showing signs of pregnancy. Soon after she got exiled and separated from Rama. That means they had lived together only for 25 years after deducting 1 year in Ashoka vana.
TRULY RAMA RULED FOR 11,000 YEARS, according to Valmiki Ramayana.
RAMA's PERIOD FROM RESEARCH ON VALMIKI RAMAYANA: Many people express their own estimations arbitrarily without providing any documentary proof. Some people say Ramayana was held 5000 years ago without any basis. Ramayana composed by Valmiki has the answer, particularly in Rama Pattabhishek sarga. Rama ruled for 11,000 years. In Sanskrit, it is said dasa varsha sahasrani, dasa varsha satanicha (Ten times to thousand and ten times a hundred). One may argue how is it possible for a man to live for 11,000 years. Thousands of years ago, longevity of man was high and age of ancient man should not be equated to the modern man. If we add his 14 years of exile to forests and life at Ayodhya, it can be around 40 yrs. Anyhow, we can approximate his longevity was around 11,000 years. One cannot be sure whether Treta Yug ended with the end of Rama. Anyhow, Dwapar Yug followed, the exact time period of which is not known. It can be several thousands of years. Next, Kali Yug entered. One is not sure how many years are already over till now. But it can be few thousands of years. Considering all these periods, Rama's or Ramayana's period should be over 11,000 years ago.
DID RAMA REALLY EXIST?
My research into Valmiki Ramayana unfolds King Rama, who ruled a portion of North India called Kosala desa (kingdom) with Ayodhya as capital, existed more than 11,000 years ago. Hindus broadly named the period as Treta Yug. Traditionally, historians seek archeological evidences such as fossils, coins, vessels etc on Rama, and if they find evidences in or around Ayodhya, then only they agree on Rama's existence. But, our archeologists have not made serious efforts to find such evidences, if any, at Ayodhya, so none should jump into a hasty conclusion that Rama never existed. Some people argue that Valmiki Ramayana does not reflect Rama's history. Instead, it is mistaken by western scholars as mythology, and fiction, while some others say it is nothing but an epic. My years of research into Valmiki Ramayana revealed that Valmiki has written it mainly as the history of King Rama, because he has found extraordinary abilities and nobilities in him. Valmiki became the first historian, much before the word 'history' was coined. Ramayana also described with unprecedented details about civilizations of humans, Vanara, Gradru, and Rakshasa. He has correctly mentioned Nuwara Eliya Hills of Sri Lanka as trikuta parvat as congregation of three mountain ranges, when facilities of aerial survey was unavailable.
Nala Sethu visibly seen as a road from Rameswaram in India to Sri Lanka is the definite marine archeological evidence on existence of Rama, Vanaras, and Rakshasa civilizations. Valmiki Ramayana clearly mentioned that under the command of Crown Prince Rama, crores of Vanaras, Golanguls and Rukshyas have built the road just in 5 days. Incredibly, they have built on 200 meters deep sea. A rough estimate shows that it is around 60 km long and 5 km wide. During British rule, number of attempts were made at various places to see whether a passage to ships can be made through Nala Sethu. Since it became a huge unbreakable fossil, it was not possible to make a passage, as a result a chain of islands are seen visibly and also through satellite.
One may argue how is it possible for King Rama to live or rule for 11,000 years? One should not compare Ramayana period with the current times.
Dear Dr M.A. Padmanabha Rao.
With due respects to your scholarship, let me differ from your views - all but one which is about the historicity of Rama. Ramayana is perhaps the first documented history by any one on earth and Kavi Valmiki, the first historian.
There is a counter to all the other observations by yourself spread over many articles in this blogspot. Let me try to give them in brief here and give the links to those articles for further elaboration.
(1) First of all, Rama could not have lived 11,000 years ago, as that was the time of pre-Holocene when Ice Age was still on. The Ganges was not flowing, as most of North India was under terrible cold conditions with Himalayas impregnated with glaciers. The first presence of waters could be seen only in the North west / west of Indian sub continent with Saraswathi gradually picking up with monsoon waters and melting ice.
(2) When Ikshvaku, the progenitor of Rama's race established his kingdom, there was no Ganges - it was only after Bhagiratha, another predecessor of Rama, that Ganges started flowing across North India. So any dating of Rama can happen only after the geological existence of the Ganges. This brings the date of Ganges later to 10,000 years ago when the Himalayan glaciers started melting. The cross-checking comes from sea-level rises, which peaked around 7300 years ago.
(3) Further cross-checking comes from experiments on the geology of Nala Sethu. In this context read my blog on the interview with Dr Badrinarayanan, a geologist who tested Sethu soil. http://jayasreesaranathan.blogspot.in/2013/02/ram-setu-man-made-structure-geologist.html
Sethu was originally a raised bund on the sea floor. But a man made structure was raised over that. Based on the analysis, he says that "either between 5,800 to 5,400 years ago, or (some time since) 4,000 years ago, somebody appeared to have brought all the boulders and dumped them there." Read the details in the link given above. Two sets of corals are seen on the bed dumped at two different periods, the former being more than 5000 years ago. One must recall that soon after the bund was raised by the vanaras, it was inundated as we find the description of Setu below waters on Rama's return journey from Lanka. 5,800 years ago the water level was highest and after that it came down and then rose up. So there is a probability of the first and original bund raised by the Vanaras happening before 5800 years ago and later after Ramayana had come to stay in memory and veneration, efforts were made to raise it to make it a thoroughfare which lasted till the last century.
(4) Looking at internal references from Valmiki Ramayana, Pandyans were ruling from Kavatam (2nd sangam age which was between 5550 BCE and 1850 BCE., While giving the location of places in the south Shugreeva says that after crossing the river Kaveri, Agasthya's abode and then river Tamraparani, the vanaras would reach the Kavatam of Pandyas! ( कवाटम् पाण्ड्यानाम् – Valmiki Ramayana, chapter 41 -19). Thereafter they would reach the southern oceans, said Shugreeva. From there they could reach Ravana's Lanka from Mahendra hills! So the Pandyans of 2nd sangam age having their capital city at Kavatam were the contemporaries of Rama. This did not happen 11000 years ago or some epoch called Tretha yuga. (Read http://jayasreesaranathan.blogspot.in/2013/02/all-tamils-must-unite-to-save-ram-setu.html)
(continued)
(5) Another internal reference from Valmiki Ramayana is Sita telling the female demons अहिः एव अहेः पादान् विजानाति न संशयः (5-42-9) It means 'a serpent only can recognize the feet of another serpent' - this is a proverb found only in Tamil and not even in Sanskrit or in any other lanuage in the world. Its Tamil version is "Paambin kaal paambu ariyum". Sita using that Tamil proverb to the female demons of Lanka shows that they all had known / spoken Tamil as Manushya Bhasha. I don't want to pitch the date of that Bhasha to an unknown antiquity or else I have to say that the Kavi was a later born (not a contemporary of Rama) and written out of his imagination. But that Valmiki was familiar with Tamil and therefore of a period that was a few thousands of years ago can be established by many sources. Read my article 'Valmiki of Ramayana knew Tamil! (Spoken language of ancient India - part 1)' in the link http://jayasreesaranathan.blogspot.in/2013/03/valmiki-of-ramayana-knew-tamil-spoken.html
(6) This brings us to the next issue that the Manushya Bhasha that Hanuman and Sita conversed was Madhura Bhasha, the olden name for Tamil. My research on this can be read here:- http://jayasreesaranathan.blogspot.in/2013/04/hanuman-and-sita-conversed-in-madhura.html
(7) This further reiterates that Hanuman and other vanaras were not exotic beings but only human beings in the guise of vanaras. The vanaras were originally kshatriyas who were forced to remain hidden to escape the fury of Parashurama. My research article "Vanaras were human beings in disguise to escape from Parashurama (Mundas – 6)" can be read in the link - http://jayasreesaranathan.blogspot.in/2014/04/vanaras-were-human-beings-in-disguise.html
(8)For further info on Pandyans as contemporaries of Rama, there exists a inscriptional evidence that Ravana bought peace with a Pandyan king. Sinnamanur copper plates of the Pandyan kings, while tracing the genealogy of Pandyans make a specific reference to an earlier Pandyan (name not mentioned ) to have made Ravana buy peace (refer verse 5 in this link: - http://www.whatisindia.com/inscriptions/south_indian_inscriptions/volume_3/copper_plates_at_tirukkalar.html )
This is written both in the Sanskrit portion and the Tamil portion of the inscriptions. In Sanskrit it is written "Dasaanan sandheepa rakshakaara". In Tamil the same is written as "dasavathanan saarbaaka sandhu seithum". There was geographic proximity between the Pandyans and Ravana. The Pandyans had some skirmishes with him and at some time, they had the ten-headed Ravana buy truce with them or had negotiated with Ravana for some reason. The reason is not known and the exact event is not known, but the very mention of some interaction with Ravana goes to show that Ravana was not a mythological character, nor a Ramayana a fiction. It also shows that Ramayana happened in a decipherable past and not lakhs of years ago.
More in my article in this link - http://jayasreesaranathan.blogspot.in/2013/02/all-tamils-must-unite-to-save-ram-setu.html
(continued)
(9) There are astrological and astronomy researches on the date of Rama which can be read in the following links:-
"Rama lived 7000 years ago." (http://jayasreesaranathan.blogspot.in/2010/10/rama-lived-7000-years-ago.html)
"Rama’s birth date." (http://jayasreesaranathan.blogspot.in/2010/10/ramas-birth-date.html)
"When was Rama born?" (http://jayasreesaranathan.blogspot.in/2010/10/when-was-rama-born.html)
Though there are slight discrepancies in the dates arrived at in these papers, the fact of the matter is the date occurred nearly 2000 years before Mahabharata. The astrology software (Jhora 7.66 version) that I use shows Rama's birth time planets on 9th Jan 5114 BCE, a day before Dr Bhatnagar's date in his astronomy software. This is to say that the planetary combinations given in Valmiki Ramayana for Rama's birth did occur in recent past, say 7000 years ago.
(10) Last, but not the least, if we pitch the date of Rama at some period before 10s of thousands of years ago, we can not prove the historicity of Ramayana. The land, geology, rivers, flora, fauna, people and culture everything would have been different and not as what is found in Ramayana.
Moreover to say that Rama ruled for 11000 years to mean that he lived that long can not be sustained at all as human body or for that matter any living organism can not live that long in nature. Therefore it is time we shed those ideas and find more concrete proofs for the historicity of Ramayana while at the same trying yo figure out what the Kavi has meant by those expressions.
In addition, I happened to read the lineage of Rama in this link http://www.hitxp.com/articles/history/descendants-lord-rama-war-mahabharata/
which says that Rama's descendant Brihad bala participated in the Mahabharata war.
This may confuse people on yuga calculations. Please read my many articles on Yugas
"Rama in Treta yuga – Yuga is defined on the basis of dharma and not the number of years." http://jayasreesaranathan.blogspot.in/2008/04/rama-in-treta-yuga-yuga-is-defined-on.html
"On Yuga-Classification and what causes Yugas"
http://jayasreesaranathan.blogspot.in/2011/01/on-yuga-classification-and-what-causes.html
There is one more reference that we get from Hanuman Chalisa
"yuga sahasra yojana par bhanu"
1 Yuga - 12,000 years
1 sahasra - 1000
1 yojana - 8 miles
yuga X sahasra X yojana = par bhanu
=
12,000 X 1000 X 8 miles = 96000000 miles
This is the distance between the earth and the sun (Bhanu)
So 1 yuga is 12,000 years which is divided into 4 (chathur) yugas.
That number is same as the one written in the above article.
12000 years + pre-sandhi 1200 years + post sandhi 1200 years = 14,400 years
Dear Ravikiranji,
Sorry I missed out your comment and read now only. My thoughts on your views (better late than never):)
// 1. If we explain Rama's 11,000 as equal to 31 years (citing Ahoreva samvatsar), we will need to use the same Ahovera calculation for his Vanavasa and childhood. Thus 14 years of Vanavasa would have to be calculated as a few days at the most in Ahovera yardstick!! //
11000 years refer to the praiseworthy period of Rama's rule. So the exaggeration ought to be there as we find parallels in Nacchinaarkkiniyar speaking of Maakeerthi (in whose presence of Tholkappiyam was inaugurated) being in throne for 24,000 years. The glorious ruling period is praised in superlative degrees whereas the other periods do not attract such adulation, particularly vanavas. Even in the puranas, such expressions of 1000s of years are found in adulation.
//2. Again, if Rama's 11,000 = 100 (approx), it implies that Dasharatha's 60,000 = almost 600...//
Same yardsticks to be followed here too. If we take Dasharatha's age literally, then his 3 wives have lived more than him! Why no mention of their age in 1000s of years? It shows that all this numbers are symbolic only.
But I have a different thought on 60,000 yrs attributed to Dasharatha. He was already old when Rama and brothers were born. People were waiting for Rama to take up the reign but that was not happening. People were wondering when this old man was going to transfer power. Perhaps the exasperation led them say that he was in power for 60,000 years. But then why they didn't say 100,000 years? Perhaps number 60 was the optimum number for life (60 year cycle) and so they had expressed that Dasharatha was in power for 60 thousand years (but still had not quit).
The sangam age poet had attributed much more years to his king. We can say that kind of exaggeration was not done in Rama's case. The Kavi had only stuck to the Dharmically relevant numbers of years for Rama as indicated by Ahoreva samvatsara.
Ms. Jayasree, Thanks to you for your support.
My comment: You have used perhaps in saying Ramayana is perhaps the first documented history. That means you are not yet sure what you say. My research work since 45 years unfolds Ramayana was written with an intention mainly to portray Rama’s history. It is the first history of a man.
(1) First of all, Rama could not have lived 11,000 years ago, as that was the time of pre-Holocene when Ice Age was still on.
My comment: Rama’s rule for 11,000 years is cited from Valmiki Ramayana. Everyone will doubt how a man could rule or exists for such a long period, when current man hardly lives over 100 yrs, with few exceptions. One should not compare ancient man’s living conditions with that of current humans. For example, many living beings existed thousands of years ago but they do not exist today. Five fossils of Dinosaurs along with their eggs were found in Adilabad District of Andhra Pradesh. One such fossil of Dinosaur was exhibited at Birla Museum at Hyderabad. We have no clue what kind of living being existed in that era. That is why, when Ramayana described Vanaras, Golanguls and Rukshyas have built Nala Sethu between ancient India and Sri Lanka, Vanaras should not be mistaken as monkeys. The longevity of humans and other living beings existed in Ramayana period cannot be imagined or denied comparing with the current living standards. Truly speaking, Ramayana hints on ancient man’s longevity by mentioning Rama’s rule for 11,000 years and King Dasarath longevity of 60,000 years.
The rest of the words are all opinions expressed by researchers: as that was the time of pre-Holocene ……with monsoon waters and melting ice.
My comment: We respect other’s views. Readers opt the best in course of time.
2. So any dating of Rama can happen only after the geological existence of the Ganges. This brings the date of Ganges later to 10,000 years ago when the Himalayan glaciers started melting.
My comment: Someone imagined that Himalayan glaciers started melting from 10,000 years. As scientist (physicist), I just wish to know why 10,000 years and why not 8,200 years and 11,800 years etc. How this figure 10,000 arrived at?
The cross-checking comes from sea-level rises, which peaked around 7300 years ago.
My comment: This is nothing to do with Ramayana period.
3. Sethu was originally a raised bund on the sea floor. But a man made structure was raised over that.
My comment: I respect both you and Dr Badrinarayanan, a geologist who tested Sethu soil. I wish both of you should have read and referred Nala Sethu in your discussion. Without reading Valmiki Ramayana, the following words of Dr Badrinarayanan did not mean anything: But a man made structure was raised over that.
What does he mean by man-made? According to Valmiki Ramayana, Nala Sethu was a road built on deep sea by Vanaras, Golanguls and Rukshyas under the commandership and Crown Prince Rama. Instead of mentioning who actually built the road, Nala Sethu Dr Badrinarayanan used vague words like somebody appeared to have brought all the boulders and dumped them there. This is incomplete study. Aging of rocks can be done by carbon dating and by other advanced techniques. Approximating Nala Sethu’s age either between 5,800 to 5,400 years ago by simple imagination is unacceptable in science.
4. Please mention your reference in Valmiki Ramayan published by Geeta Press. Otherwise, please quote complete sloka, sarga and publisher.
My comment & Correction: It is Sampati who had an ability to see great distances saw and disclosed that Sita was in Ravan’ lanka. Sugriva did not say, From there they could reach Ravana's Lanka from Mahendra hills! You may be quoting some other version of Ramayana and not Valmiki Ramayana. It seems, you did not read Valmiki Ramayana. Kindly read once and discus again please.
Respected Sir,
Replying to your comments.
(1) You have written in the earlier comment that Rama existed more than 11,000 years ago, Please check your comment. No comments for the rest of your opinions in the comment marked 1.
(2) It is a geological fact the the last Glacial Maximum occurred between 19K and 23K years before present. After that the Ice age gradually came to an end. The melting of Himalayan glaciers started around 11,500 BCE that led to the breaking of Gangotri later. This means Bhagiratha, the ancestor of Rama came after this period only. Ganges was flowing in Rama's times. It means the period is after de-glaciation of Gangotri started. Therefore the period of flowing of Ganges is important in fixing the date of Ramayana.
(3) Please read the interview by Mr Badrinarayanan of the Geological Survey of India. NIOT was involved in carrying out the scientific research on Nala Sethu. This is not a research by any individual but by NIOT and assessed by many other researchers. Carbon dating was also done. In fact Centre for Remote sensing which did the carbon dating ascribes the date of the corals to 3500 years before present only. But Dr Badri Narayanan of GEI has shown how the corals and stuffed materials are found in two layers and how they could not have formed in nature. He has established that Sethu bund is man made but the date could be anytime between 5800 to 7000 years BP. The date does not go beyond that. For your information, all those involved in research of Ramayana are well versed in Valmiki Ramayana.
(4)Though my primary reading comes from the transliterated (into tamil) books of Valmiki Ramayana written in 1920s which are in the possession of our family (in fact my ancestors were known for Ramayana kalakshepa), I quoted from the Valmiki Ramayana, Sanskrit to English version available in the internet at www.valmikiramayan.net. Shugreeva gives guidance to vanaras on all the 4 directions which are a valuable source of deciphering the countries of those days. The southward route and countries are given by Shugreeva in chapter 41 of Kishkindha khanda. The link is http://www.valmikiramayan.net/utf8/kish/sarga41/kishkindha_41_frame.htm
The same information is there in the transliterated version I have. Meaning to say that there is no interpolation in the internet version.
You may check with your Gita Press version.
Ms Jayasree, You do not need to address me as Sir. I am an ordinary man.
1. Rama's rule for 11,000 years that I quoted is from Valmiki's Ramayana. My research on Valmiki's Ramayana for many years unfolds that the figure 11,000 years seems to be true.
2. Even in physics, theoretical predictions many scientists do. We respect all that but we give credence when we find experimental evidences. ATRIBUTUTING CERTAIN PERIODS LINKED TO PARTICULA EVENTS ARE ALL THEORETICAL PREDICTIONS. AS SCIENTIST I RESPECT OTHERS VIEWS. However, one cannot be sure whether those really took place, and those events took place exactly at that exact period. My research strongly supports what Valmiki reported in Ramayana. Refusing Valmiki Ramayana, giving too much importance to theoretical predictions do not seems to be justified.
3. The very basis on existence of road like structure on the sea could be well linked with Nala Sethu. I have given my opinion as scientist some years back in a TV program called Mano Ya Namano. In my opinion and of many others, the road like structure is nothing but Nala Sethu built under the command of chief architect, a Vanara known as Nala. Vanaras were distinct civilizations existed during Ramayana period. I personally appreciate the efforts made by scientists including Dr Badri Narayanan on Nala sethu. Your previous comment under 3. says "somebody appeared to have brought all the boulders and dumped them there." The inference drawn by the team of investigating scientists supports what Valmiki wrote in Ramayana. Vanaras, Golanguls and Rukshyas have broken hill tops from India and brought those elephant sized boulders and placed systematically to fall in a line. They also uprooted 15 types of tress and placed on the boulders. Over that they have placed sand. Ultimately, the landmass created on the sea looked plain road for crossing crores of Vanaras Golanguls and Rukshyas.
Valmiki Ramayana only provides unprecedented details on the road from ancient India to Sri lanka on sea. Crores of Vanaras, Golanguls and Rukshyas have built the road just in 5 days under the Command of Crown Prince Rama. You said, "He has established that Sethu bund is man made". CAN YOU PLEASE ENLIGHTEN ME WHAT IS MEANT BY MAN-MADE? Humans cannot built a road of nearly 60 km long and 5 km wide from Rameswaram to Mannar in Sri lanka on 200 meters deep sea. Then how it could be man made?
Two time periods were mentioned by you. One by carbon dating: 3500 years. On the other hand 5800 to 7000 years BP was predicted. Even in physics, we do experiments. All experiments will not give correct results. Rarely, surprise findings can lead to discoveries. Those team of scientists may need to do further investigations to verify whether any fossils of trees are present; and whether time period of those fossils and boulders exceed 11,000 years.
4. It is true King Sugriv gave vivid descriptions of land etc to Vanaras as you have mentioned. As he was not sure where Sita was, he asked Vanaras to go in all 4 directions and search for Sita. Accordingly, they searched around Vindhya region and did not find Sita. Ultimately, they landed on a sea shore. There they met Sampati, who saw Sita in Ravan's protected area in ancient Sri Lanka. On his advice, Hanuman has flown southwards towards Sri Lanka via Minaca Hill and found her in Ashoka Vana of Ravan. I did research from Valmiki Ramayana published by Geeta Press, Gorakhpur in UP. The book is available in big Rly stations as well.
Dr Padmanabha Rao,
(1) & (2) There is no issue on whether we accept Valmiki's Ramayana or not. This and other articles by me are written based on Valmiki Ramayana ONLY, as we take him as the contemporary and hence his version as the authentic one.
Nowhere Valmiki says that Rama lived 11,000 years ago, but this was written by you in your comment which I contested.
(3) On Nala Sethu, the findings of the GSI and NIOT were submitted to the court to establish the historicity of the place and that it is man-made.
Man made means it does not exist in nature. It has been made deliberately be someone. Who is that someone? It was Rama at whose behest the sethu was made by vanaras, Rukshyas etal. For that sake we can't say that it is not man-made. It was made in a planned and deliberate way. That was proved by Dr Badri Narayana team. They also arrived at the date of those layers which are within the range of 7000 years and later. Around 11000 years before present the sea level was 120 meters lower than now and the the naturally available raised land at Sethu was a land mass connecting India with Lanka. That means the land bridge at Sethu existed by itself before 11000 years ago. It didn't need anyone to build it at that time. Please check the Inundation maps prepared by Graham Hancock on Indian landmass in this link https://grahamhancock.com/ashcf1/
He didn't create the maps out of fantasy but based on sea level rises and inundation levels around the globe researched by Glenn Milne. The inundation around India are consistent with marine archaeological findings on Kutch and in the west coast at the relevant times and are supported by Tamil sangam narrations in eastern border.
(4) Based on Gita press publication, you have accepted that Shugreeva did give instructions on loactions. Did you check whether that publication gave the Valimi Ramayana verse on "Kavatam Pandiyanaam" (VR 4-41-19)?
Finally I want to ask you - what is your opinion on the following?
(1) On the blessing of "Shatamaanam bhavathi shataayu: purusha:" why Shatayu:?
(2) Why ""PashyEma sharada: shatham… jIvEma sharada: shatham" seeking 100 years of ayush in noon time sandhyavandana?
(3) Why Sita quoted the adage "एहि जीवन्तम् आनदो नरम् वर्ष शतात् अपि" (VR 5-34-6) Why 100 years linked to man?
(4) In the Shanthi vachan "Bhadram karnebhi..." before Vedic invocation what is the ayush given by Devas "Vyashema Devahitaṃ Yadaayuh"?
If the expected human life is in 100 units (like the Brahma's life in 100 units) why Maanusha Maatrena Rama (in Mandodari's words in 6-111-5) lived for more than 11,000 years? As a scientist do you think the human cell generation can go on for that long?
Ms Jayasree,
Let me clarify certain differences in our views.
1 and 2. I hope you agree that Valmiki wrote in Rama Pattabhishek Sarga that Rama ruled for 11,000 years, based on the sloka I cited earlier from Geeta Publication. MY COMMENT: If you consider from his birth till now, he lived over 11,000 years ago. This is simple calculation.
3. You agree on the basis of Valmiki Ramayana that the sethu was made by vanaras, Rukshyas etal. MY COMMENT: Practically, Rama did not employ men to build the sethu on sea. Therefore, Nala sethu was not man made.
THE FOLLOWING INFERENCES ARE PURELY THEORETICAL ASSUMPTIONS AND DO NOT STAND VALID SCIENTIFICALLY: The assumption that the date of those layers which are within the range of 7000 years and later
MY COMMENT: On Nala Sethu, the findings of the GSI and NIOT need to be verified by another expert team of scientists. It is because the samples collected for testing might not be from fossils formed from trees placed by Vanaras, and might be from some other areas of later date. Anyhow, samples need to be collected again from proper sites and tested again for correct results.
THE FOLLOWING WORDS ARE ASSUMPTIONS AND DO NOT STAND SCIENTIIC SCRUTINY. AS PHYSICIST WHO REPORTED TEN FUNDAMENTAL PHYSICS DISCOVERIES IN 2010, 2013, and 2015 I EXAMINED THESE WITH UNBIASED VIEW. AS SCIENTIST, I DO NOT AGREE WITH THE FOLLOWING VIEWS: Around 11000 years before present the sea level was 120 meters lower than now and the naturally available raised land at Sethu was a land mass connecting India with Lanka. That means the land bridge at Sethu existed by itself before 11000 years ago.
THE FOLLOWING STATEMENT IN YOUR COMMENT IS NOT FACTUAL. IT GOES AGAINST HISTORY OF NALA SETHU: It didn't need anyone to build it at that time.
YOU ASKED ME TO VIEW THE FOLLOWING MAPS. I AM NOT SURE WHETHER HE READ AND UNDERSTOOD VALMIKI RAMYANA OR SIMPLY HIS OWN IMAGINATION. ANYHOW, I DO NOT GIVE MUCH IMPORTANCE TO HIS PERSONAL VIEWS, WHEN VALMIKI RAMAYANA PROVIDES THE CLUE ON NALA SETHU. Please check the Inundation maps prepared by Graham Hancock on Indian landmass in this link https://grahamhancock.com/ashcf1/
4. Geeta publication of Valmiki Ramayana DID NOT CITE Kavatam Pandiyanaam (VR 4-41-19)? What you said could be from regional version.
Dr Padmanabha Rao,
The verse is not regional. No one dared to interpolate Valmiki Ramayana, particularly those from South India / Tamil lands as Ramayana was considered as Veda Matha who follows Veda purusha.
वेद वेद्ये परे पुंसि जाते दशरथात्मजे ।
वेदःप्रचेतसादासीद् साक्षाद् रामायणात्मना ॥
veda vedye pare pumsi jate dasharathatmaje |
vedah prachetasadasid sakshad ramayanatmana ||
“When the omni potent omniscient and the Omnipresent Almighty who can be known only through Veda, took birth as a son of Dasharatha, the most precious Veda has been rendered as Ramayana by the sage Prachetasa.(Valmiki).”
This is for the information of anyone who doubts the existence of the sloka on Pandyan Kavatam.
Kindly check the Gita press edition of Valmiki Ramayana for the sloka on kavatam pandyanaam. The sloka number or chapter number may be different.
For your reference I am reproducing the sloka here.
19 ततॊ हेममयं दिव्यं मुक्तामणिविभूषितम
युक्तं कवाटं पाण्ड्यानां गता दरक्ष्यथ वानराः
It is in chapter 41 of Kishkindha kanda in Valmikiramayan.net
The link to the sloka is
http://www.valmikiramayan.net/utf8/kish/sarga41/kishkindha_41_frame.htm
(check the link for authenticity of the text)
The same sloka is in chapter 40 of Kishkindha kanda in sacred texts website
The link is
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rys/rys4040.htm
For easy search let me give the first sloka of the chapter in which the pandyanaam sloka comes. It is
ततः परस्थाप्य सुग्रीवस तन महद वानरं बलम
दक्षिणां परेषयाम आस वानरान अभिलक्षितान
Check this in Gita press book.
Ms Jayasree, I have verified the sloka you have cited Kavaatam pandyanaam in two different versions. One is from Valmiki Ramayana by Geeta Press, Gorakhpur. In this both original Sanskrit slokas and translation is provided. The other one is from Aaarsha Vijnana Trust, Hyderabad. Both Sanskrit and its translation is telugu is provided. In both versions, I have seen the sloka you have mentioned. The sarga is same, but the number of sloka is different. Now, I realize we have common version that helps us to discuss better.
PLEASE REFER YOUR EARLIER COMMENT:
(8)For further info on Pandyans as contemporaries of Rama, there exists a inscriptional evidence that Ravana bought peace with a Pandyan king. Sinnamanur copper plates of the Pandyan kings, while tracing the genealogy of Pandyans make a specific reference to an earlier Pandyan (name not mentioned ) to have made Ravana buy peace (refer verse 5 in this link: - http://www.whatisindia.com/inscriptions/south_indian_inscriptions/volume_3/copper_plates_at_tirukkalar.html )
MY COMMENT: TRUE: King Sugriva has made geographical descriptions of Indian kingdoms including Vidharba, Kalinga (Odisha or Orissa), Andhra, Chola, Paandya, Kerala where Sita can be searched. I agree that there were many other kingdoms during Rama's period. Yes, those kings were Rama's contemporaries.
OUR DIFFERENCES: Ramayana was also written in regional languages by many subsequent to Valmiki. Sinnamanur copper plates depicting Ravana bringing peace with a Pandyan king might exist. I hope, you are not attributing those copper plates to Rama's or Ravan's period. If yes, it is difficult to prove that the copper plates are of Ravan's period. By all means, those copper plates are of later or recent period. To be sure, there will be a need to test scientifically for its date of inscription.
PlEASE ALSO REFER THE FOLLOWING FROM YOUR EARLIER COMMENT. I HAVE MADE EXTENSIVE RESEARCH ON VANARAS. ACCORDING TO MY RESEARCH, VANARAS, GOLANGULS, RUKSHYAS, RAKSHASAS, GRADRUS WERE DISTINCTLY DIFFERENT CIVILIZATIONS EXISTED DURING RAMAYANA PERIOD, PARALLEL TO HUMANS. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE TO SHOW THAT THEY WERE HUMANS.
I am not trying to influence you through my findings. But my research findings do not agree with yours. Hanuman is typical example of Vanaras. They ate fruits and honey. They had slightly protruding mouth, and a long tail. They were not monkeys, nor they looked like monkeys. Some of them were of the size of mountains. They broke mountain tops and brought elephant sized boulders to build Sethu. They fought with Rakshasas with trees and boulders, and nails. They did not carry any weapons for war with Ravan. some Vanaras had an unusual ability of flying long distances. King Sugriva and some others had an ability of changing their physical form at will.
7) This further reiterates that Hanuman and other vanaras were not exotic beings but only human beings in the guise of vanaras. The vanaras were originally kshatriyas who were forced to remain hidden to escape the fury of Parashurama. My research article "Vanaras were human beings in disguise to escape from Parashurama (Mundas – 6)" can be read in the link - http://jayasreesaranathan.blogspot.in/2014/04/vanaras-were-human-beings-in-disguise.html
Jayashree, if 11000 yrs is the praiseworthy period of Rama, why does Dasaratha have a comparable timeline of 1000's of years.
I have always been confused by time measure in Indian epics,yugs,etc.
http://www.slideshare.net/sheoran1/mahabharata-war-827-bce-finally has some interesting arguments, please let me know your thoughts .
Not entire earth is under the rule of dashrath,so when the lord ram became the king he has started Ashwamedha yagam..
She asked ram to go on vanvas for 14 years. so that Barath can became the king and get his full control over the kindom
Mam can u please solve the age problem of rama?
It is really fascinating how you, saroj bala ji, and puskar bhatnagar ji took out the birth date of rama in 10th january 5114 B. C. When all the planetry positions were matching but mam the problem I am facing is that saroj bala ji and pushkar ji corrabarted the astrnomical observations as told by Dashratha just a day before rama was going to be crowned that was 5089 B. C. But the next day everything changed and rama had to leave for forest now according to pushkad and saroja bala ji
5114-5089=25
So rama was 25 years old when he left for exile of 14 years but ACCORDING TO VALMIKI RAMAYAN WHEN SITA WAS TELLING ABOUT HER SUFFERINGS when she was captured in ashoka vatika SHE SAID THAT WHEN SHE WAS MARRIED RAMA WAS 25 YEARS OLD AND SITA 18 YEARS OLD AND SHE HAPPILY LIVEN IN AYODHYA FOR 13 YEARS!!!! AND THEN SHE LEFT FOR VANVASA IN THE STARTING OF 13TH YEAR THAT MEANS SITA WOULD HAVE BEEN
18+13= 31 YEARS OLD
AND RAMA
25+13= 38 YEARS OLD
BUT ACCORDING TO pushkar and saroj bala ji RAMA LEFT IN 5089 B. C. THAT MEANS RAMA WAS ONLY 25 YEARS OLD WHEN HE LEFT FOR VANVASA BUT ACCORDING TO VALMIKI RAMA SHOULD BE 38 YEARS OLD
Please solve this problem I am reay confused🙏🙏🙏
@ Unknown (I wish people identity themselves)
Please read the relevant verses to get the facts right.
Or read my blog where I have given the relevant verses from Valmiki
https://jayasreesaranathan.blogspot.com/2010/10/rama-lived-7000-years-ago.html
🙏👌
As she said, it were the dharma expounded by इक्ष्वाकु dynasty that was followes in across the landmass (which would mean subcontinent). इक्ष्वाकु law, not state was spread throughout. There may b poetic exaggeration too.
There is something called reality, such as man can't pass through wall, dog can't have 6 legs and so on.
Pranams! Madam, all your postings are very good and I feel time is relative to each yuga and
it is not absolute thing. It differs for each yuga. Many kings in solar dynasty performed
99 or 100 Aswamedayagas. It is told that each Aswameda takes around one samvatsara or year.Aswameda yagas are not performed without break. So if we take 99 aswameda yagas performed
by Dhileepa we need to interprest in the life span of many thousand years 100 years were spent
on Aswameda yaga. so life span is more in previous yuga on different scales of time.
i thing this appeals to logic. Most of the happenings in other yugas are not documented in
detail. Bagavatham says in kali human beings will be endowed with 'mandha mathi' and alpha
bagyam'.
I have been searching for who was king Raghu's wife ie Aja's mother in Raghu vamsam. If
there is an answer I will be happy and thankful...
Raghuraman...
@ Raghuraman,
Few kings are said to have done 100 Ashwamedha yajna. We don't know whether they were expressed in the same way as how Rama was said to have lived for 11000 years.
In understanding the texts, we must apply discriminatory sense of perception on human life endurance. Siddhas are said to have lived for 100s of years, in meditation, in secluded places but none reported in material life.
The Yuga nature has been explained by me in detail. Refer the articles starting from this http://jayasreesaranathan.blogspot.com/2021/03/yuga-computation-took-place-only-after.html (series)
and this http://jayasreesaranathan.blogspot.com/2018/01/divya-and-dharma-two-sides-of-yuga.html (4 part series)
Excellent.
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