There is a consensus that women should not recite the vedas. This disturbed me a lot until I got a convincing reply some years ago through my search. I wrote that finding in a Yahoo group in a short series. I am reproducing them here. There are quite a few issues like this that I have already analyzed and written in Groups. But what induced me to take out this series from my folder is a compilation that I read in a Group. It was a compilation of slokas from Pramana texts that say that women did chant / recite Vedas in olden days. It gave me a peculiar sense of relief as I once struggled to prove that Women are not barred from chanting Vedas. I started that argument with a poser as follows:-
“There is a consensus that women should not recite the
vedas.
Fine!
Why should they
- when it was a woman who gifted the world with
‘vedamanaitthukkum vitthu’ (Meaning “the seed of all Vedas” – a description given for Thirppaavai sung by a woman, Andal)
- when it was the same woman who merged with Lord
Ranganatha for all others to see (Andal)
Picture courtesy:- http://manasasancharare.wordpress.com/2010/08/10/andal-jayanti-poetess-saint-who-refused-to-marry-none-except-the-lord/
- when it was a woman (a muslim one at that) who
merged with Lord Thirunarayanan at Melkote right in front of
Ramanujacharya.
Thulukka Naachiyar engraved at the feet of the Lord.
Picture Courtesy:- http://kshetrapuranas.blogspot.com/2011/03/saga-of-thulukka-naachiyaar-melkote.html
- and it is as woman in Nayaki bhava that seekers of
Lord’s feet get closer to Him.
- Hence the question is not whether women could recite
the Vedas or not.
- It is – ‘Should they need to learn Vedas at all, as
men do?’”
Many responses followed explaining why women need not chant the Vedas and why such an injunction came into force. However I got a reply for it in my own way and wrote my experience on how I got the reply. I will write them in the subsequent posts here.
In this post let me place on record the many references from Sruti texts that do say that women chanted Vedas. The compilation was done by Mr Shivashankara Rao and with his permission I am reproducing them here. My sincere thanks to him for granting the permission.
A FEW AUTHORITIES IN SUPPORT OF WOMEN CHANTING VEDAS:-
1. The "Brahma" in a yajna is the best trained
purohit who can correct the others involved in the yajna. BRAHMAA VAA
RITVIJAABHMISHAKTAMAHA – Shatapatha brahmana 1.7.4.19.
"Thasyaadyo
brahmanishtaha syaath tham brahmaanam kurveeth".
"Atha kena brahmtvam
kreeyathe iti trayyaa vidyayethi, trayya vidyayeti ha brooyaath"
(Aithareya 5.33).
purohit who can correct the others involved in the yajna. BRAHMAA VAA
RITVIJAABHMISHAKTAMAHA – Shatapatha brahmana 1.7.4.19.
"Thasyaadyo
brahmanishtaha syaath tham brahmaanam kurveeth".
"Atha kena brahmtvam
kreeyathe iti trayyaa vidyayethi, trayya vidyayeti ha brooyaath"
(Aithareya 5.33).
2. A woman can be a brahma as mentioned in Rigveda (8.33.-19).
“…sthree hi brahmaa vibhoovidhaha" .
“…sthree hi brahmaa vibhoovidhaha" .
3. "AachaaryadaNatvam"…Ashtaadhyaayi 4.3.2.49.
"ACHHARYASYA STREE AACHAARYAANEE PUM YOGA ITHYEVA AACHAARYA SVAYAM VYAAKHYAATREE"-Siddhaanta koumudi.
( the woman who conducts the veda pravachana is called an Achaarya) .
"ACHHARYASYA STREE AACHAARYAANEE PUM YOGA ITHYEVA AACHAARYA SVAYAM VYAAKHYAATREE"-Siddhaanta koumudi.
( the woman who conducts the veda pravachana is called an Achaarya) .
4. Aachaarya lakshana :- "UPANEEYA TUM YAHA SHISHYA
VEDAMADHYAAPAYED DWIJAHA, SAKALPA SARAHASYAM CHA THAMAACHAARYA
PRACHAKSHATHE".
( The one who can conduct the upanayana samskaara and teaches the Vedas is called the Aachaarya).
Siddhaanta Koumudi edited by Mahamahopaadhyaaya pandit Shivadatta sarma says,
VEDAMADHYAAPAYED DWIJAHA, SAKALPA SARAHASYAM CHA THAMAACHAARYA
PRACHAKSHATHE".
( The one who can conduct the upanayana samskaara and teaches the Vedas is called the Aachaarya).
Siddhaanta Koumudi edited by Mahamahopaadhyaaya pandit Shivadatta sarma says,
5. "ITI VACHANENAAPI STREENAM VEDAADHYANAADIKAARO DHVANITHAHA".
(THIS MAKES IT CLEAR THAT WOMEN HAS VEDAADHIKAARA) .
(THIS MAKES IT CLEAR THAT WOMEN HAS VEDAADHIKAARA) .
6. Rigveda 10.159-2.3"THADVIDAHA�….UTAAHAMASMI SAM JAYAA…UTTAMAM".
(May I get a good husband…..Because of Vedas, I will become tejasvi and a
powerful spokes person…
May my daughter shine well because of her good
character) .
(May I get a good husband…..Because of Vedas, I will become tejasvi and a
powerful spokes person…
May my daughter shine well because of her good
character) .
7. Taandya brahmana (5-6-8) advises that women have to chant
saamaved along with veena when a yajna is being conducted.
saamaved along with veena when a yajna is being conducted.
8. The Mantra 5.5.29 ordains that the women have to circumambulate the yajna kunda
chanting the veda mantras. .
chanting the veda mantras. .
9. .The kumari Gandharva grahathaa story in
Eithareya proves that the women had all rights for Vedas. .
Eithareya proves that the women had all rights for Vedas. .
10. Laatyayana
shrouthasootra, Shaankaayana shroutha sootra etc., also confirms the
rights of women for Vedas.
There are several other authorities advising
women to chant veda mantras. .
shrouthasootra, Shaankaayana shroutha sootra etc., also confirms the
rights of women for Vedas.
There are several other authorities advising
women to chant veda mantras. .
11. Yajurveda23-23, 25-27, 29;
12. Shatapatha brahmana 1-9-2-2-1, 1.9.2.22.23;
13. Taittareeya samhitha 1.1.10,
14. Aaswalaayana grihya sootra 1.1.9,
15. Kaataka grihyasootra 3.1.30, 27-3,
16. Paaraskara grihyasootra 1.5.1,2. ,
17. Yajurveda 36-24
"tacchakshurdeva sahitam…" is to chanted only by a woman.
"tacchakshurdeva sahitam…" is to chanted only by a woman.
18. Rigveda 10-85.48 has to be chanted by husband and wife together.
19. Some Names of women who chanted Vedas:- Ghoshaa, godaa, vishvavaraa, apaalaa, adithi, jahu, indraani, vedavathi, Oorvashi, shachee, shrithaavathi, Siddhaa,
Shreemathi, Shivaa, Sulabhaa, Svadhaa, Vapunaa, Dhaarini, Romashaa,
Lopaamudraa, Yamee, Shaashvathee, Idaa, Gaargi, Maithreyi.......
Shreemathi, Shivaa, Sulabhaa, Svadhaa, Vapunaa, Dhaarini, Romashaa,
Lopaamudraa, Yamee, Shaashvathee, Idaa, Gaargi, Maithreyi.......
20. Some more Authorities for women chanting veda mantras:- Examples of women
mantradrashtaaras: Ghoshaa, godhaa, vishvavaraa, Apaalaa, Upanishad,
Jahu, Indraani, saramaa, Romashaa, Oorvashi, Lopaamudraa, Yamee,
Shaashvathee, Sooryaasavithree,....etc.,
mantradrashtaaras: Ghoshaa, godhaa, vishvavaraa, Apaalaa, Upanishad,
Jahu, Indraani, saramaa, Romashaa, Oorvashi, Lopaamudraa, Yamee,
Shaashvathee, Sooryaasavithree,....etc.,
21. Rigveda 10-134, 10-39,
10-40, 8-91, 10-95, 10-109, 10-154, 10-159, 10-189, 5-28, 8-91 ..etc.,
are from women.
10-40, 8-91, 10-95, 10-109, 10-154, 10-159, 10-189, 5-28, 8-91 ..etc.,
are from women.
22. Taittareeya brahmana 2-3-10.."..
23. Tam trayee vedaa anya
srijantha....vedan pradadow"
(Three vedas were given to the woman
Seetaa-savitri through Soma).
srijantha....vedan pradadow"
(Three vedas were given to the woman
Seetaa-savitri through Soma).
24. Manu's daughter Idaa is described in
Taittareeya Brahmana( 1-1-4) as Yajnaprakaashinee meaning Yajna tatva
prakaashana samarthaa.
(This can be continued...)
Taittareeya Brahmana( 1-1-4) as Yajnaprakaashinee meaning Yajna tatva
prakaashana samarthaa.
(This can be continued...)
25. To cite examples of mention in Mahaakavyas:-
Mahabharata:-
Udyogaparva 190-18: "Atra siddhaa shivaa naama braahmNee veda paaragaahaa.."
(A brahmin lady by name Shivaa was a scholar of vedas and she got
Moksha).
Mahabharata:-
Udyogaparva 190-18: "Atra siddhaa shivaa naama braahmNee veda paaragaahaa.."
(A brahmin lady by name Shivaa was a scholar of vedas and she got
Moksha).
26. A non brahmin lady Droupadi was a scholar of vedas.
Achaarya
Achaarya
27. Madhva in his Mahabharata tatparya nirnaya says, "Vedaaschapyuttama
streebhihi krishnaattaabhirihaakhilaaha.
( Good women should learn Vedas like Droupadi).
streebhihi krishnaattaabhirihaakhilaaha.
( Good women should learn Vedas like Droupadi).
28. Valmiki Ramayana:-
Sundarakaanda53-26:
Vaidehi shokasantaptaa hutaashanmupaagatam.
( The sad Seeta did homa to Agni)
Sundarakaanda53-26:
Vaidehi shokasantaptaa hutaashanmupaagatam.
( The sad Seeta did homa to Agni)
29. VR 5-15-48:- "Sandhyaakaale .....Sandhyaartham varavarninee".
(Seetha would certainly come to the river to perform sandhya with pure water).
(Seetha would certainly come to the river to perform sandhya with pure water).
30. Valmikiramayana 4-16-12, 2-20-15 indicate that Kousalya and Kaikeyi also
were doing agnihotra etc.,
were doing agnihotra etc.,
31. Vaali's wife tara chanted
swastimantras.
swastimantras.
32. Puranas :-
Vishnupurana (1-10) and (18-19);
Markandeyapurana (52); Brahma vaivarta purana (14-65) etc., may be seen.
Vishnupurana (1-10) and (18-19);
Markandeyapurana (52); Brahma vaivarta purana (14-65) etc., may be seen.
(To be continued)
17 comments:
So, can women become poojaris in temples as per the vedic rules? Is there some rule that says God accepts the pooja-archanas done by males and not females?
Also, is there any restriction over ringing of bell in temples by females? I was stopped by a poojari in Chottanikkara temple when i tried to ring the bell near the deity saying that females should never ring bell in temples. But I have done so in north indian temples.
Dear Mam,
It is a generally agreed and accepted tradition,truth and a fact accepted beyond any doubt that women aren't entitled to chant Vedas. "Vedham anaithirkkum viththaagum Kothai Tamizh" is referred to Thiruppavai. Anybody across any caste regardless of gender can sing that to get the blessings of Lord Krishna and Kotha. But I don't understand how that can be interpreted to say that women can chant Vedas. Did Andal Herself chant Vedas?. The answer is a big "NO", I trust. It is being regarded as Veda or even above that to glorify it for the Bhakti essence or Rasa it has. Even Dhivya prabhandam is regarded as "Dravida Vedham". Anybody regardless of caste, creed, gender, religion can chant it to be blessed by Sriman Narayana.
Thirukural is termed as "Ulaga Podhumarai" and "Aindhavadhu Vedham". Does that mean Thirukural itself is Veda and enough if people learn Thiruakural. I don't think it should be interpreted that way.
Sita, Tara, Lopamudra lived during Treta yuga and Urvashi is a Deva Kanya. Yuga Dharma, Loga Dharma varies. It is understood that in Kaliyuga women should not chant Vedas as they are bound by this yuga Dharma. There were many women poets in the Sangam age but none were believed to have chanted Vedas. Avvaiyar is considered to be Saraswati's Amsam. Her Vinayagar Agaval contains many references to Yoga sastras. I don't think She has advocated this cause. Even Brahmin men are forbidden from doing certain Yajnas which were performed in previous yugas.
These views are expressed by many people. Anantarama Dikshithar who was a great exponent of Vedas and Puranas held this view. Even Mukkur Lakshmi Narasimhachariar who lived during yesteryears held this view. Currently, the scholars like Velukkudi Krishnan and several others stand by this view.
Please clarify for the benefit of your readers. Thanks
@ Aishu,
As you say the rules vary from temple to temple or from place to place.It is better to follow the rules according as how it is followed. You can rationalize it by comparing with the rules you follow in your house. You may have some rules such as leaving the slippers outside the door, washing hands before eating or washing feet before entering the puja room etc. You would expect a visitor to your house to follow those rules when they come to your house. Similarly follow the rules as told in temples.
@ Nagarajan.
More articles are to come in this series. I hope you will get my reply in those articles.
The 2nd link given below the pic of Thirunarayanan at Melkote gives information on how the Uthsava murthy of melkote was got from the Muslim princess. The incidents narrated in that story will give an idea of what is bhakthi and how and why God blesses someone (Thirukkulaththaar incident)
Namaste,
Similarly, what do u think about giving Vedic rights and Gayatri to those not born in Brahmin lineage? Its high time we give their dues other castes as well, isnt it?
@ nutwit
All the varnas had access to Vedic education in olden times. But brahmins had that as full time occupation. That is the difference. The other varnas have given up Vedic learning in course of time due to material pursuits. Same is happening now with Brahmins. The social tension has a different origin, as I explained in the comment section of the post titled "Please, no slander on Ramanujacharya".
A detailed discourse on castes and Vedic laerning can be read in my Tamil blog in this link:
http://thamizhan-thiravidana.blogspot.com/2011/05/52.html
PS: Even MK's father wore a sacred thread as was seen in an old photo of his father. Out of animosity and foolishness, many like MK had undermined and given up the Hindu practices and are now screaming that they have been denied sacred thread.
Vivekananda says Madhva gave Women the right to chant Vedas (You can search here) http://www.ramakrishnavivekananda.info/vivekananda/volume_5/vol_5_frame.htm
When Women could be given the rights in early Vedic period, why not now? We can surely produce many Gargis even now.
Dear maa
I am not hear for any arguement. I want to convey only one thing. Vedas are started to study only after upanayanam.. so you mean to say women have right to wear ygnoopaveedam?
Dear Mr Kannan.
Justify the passages quoted in the article that say that women did learn Vedas.
I object to the expression "right" to wear yanjyopaveedham. Who had the right and who didn't in the early days?
To Mr. Nutwit and Mr Kannan,
Early women did wear the sacred thread and did chant vedas and gayathris like men.
The vedic mantras have certain frequency and acts upon different parts of human body, glands, chakras and organs.
For example: Gayatri Mantra’s 24 digits produce vibrations that work on 3 invisible spiritual chakras (Mooladhara, Swadhishhtana, Manipura) in our body - Pituitary and Prostate glands in human body. These two glands release hormones that seperate male from female kids while they attain puberty.
If a woman starts chanting these versus regularly, it is said that she will lose her female-hood character and can get manly tendencies developed in physical appearance and behaviour. In most of cases, it can cause hormone disturbances in the body and the lady can suffer mental and physical difficulties.
Anyone, who wants to pickup an argument by stating that women are suppressed, should understand that humans are divided as men and women by nature – not by humans.
By birth, our gender is decided and our bodies are assigned few duties which cannot be altered. Our ancestors did not have modern technology to tell or prove what they said, but they had the insight to do things for a reason
This is in response to comment passed by Advika Narayanan.
Sir, please do not use words like "it is said that". Who said and where is it said. This would be a cruel joke to say that women would gain manly characteristics by chanting vedic manthras. Can you show a single instance of such occurence in the past or present.
You also said "In most of cases, it can cause hormone disturbances in the body and the lady can suffer mental and physical difficulties".
Show me a single case where a lady suffered mental or physical disturbance only due to vedic chanting. Instead there are several instances where men and women gained mental balance by continuous chanting of gayathri manthra.
Yes, by nature women are soft and can perform soft activities like, teaching, bringing up kids, and any other such jobs. Job like vedic chanting doesn't require any muscle. Have you not gone through yajurveda manthra (yathemaam vacham kalyaani....)that vedas are for all the human beings, irrespective of their caste, creed, sex, race.
Please read this article.
http://www.vedasudhe.com/vedas-for-brahmins-is-only-a-myth/
Can gents do sumangali prarthanai?
Madam,
Thank you for writing this article which I know for sure is diametrically opposed to views and discourse prevalent presently atleast in Tamizh Nadu which I've all along heard, read and witnessed. While you have explained your paksham/side with dozens of Sruthi Pramanam, I'm at a loss to understand why, inspite of clear injunctions in The Vedam, we still don't get to see any sthree as a veda punditha and purohitha. No kanya undergo upanayanam and sport yagnyopaveetham. I wish to ask if presenting of pramanam alone is going to serve purpose since for it to be translated to actions there must be clearly laid down procedures. So is the reason for women still not into active vedaadhyayanam and adhyapakam- learning and teaching is due to lack of proper firm and authoritative pramanam or is there a practical difficulty in implementation including the strong opposition to it or women themselves are not interested?
I think it will be useful if you could also elaborate on
1. Relationship between upanayana yogyatha gayathri mantram and veda adhikaram
2. Purva paksham of Rishis,Acharyas, matadhipathis,veda vipras, mahamahopadhyayas,upanyasakas etc., whomever have been historically as well as presently refuting veda adhikaram for sthree
Commonly following are the points I've heard that are reasons for prohibition
A. Concerns of physiological imbalances and harm that women are prone to encounter including that of chakram, kundalini when they recite or
are constantly exposed to veda gosham
B. Custom that considers vivaham as upanayanam for women. [My ques:Is this the only solution? What if a girl chooses to remain unmarried or why not veda gyanam which is supposed to be addressing individual jeevathmas for its betterment udharanam and finally moksham be independent and not wholly mixed with marriage except for specifed agni karyams and other aupasanams]
C. Women are better off in managing domestic jobs, raising kids etc they can easily obtain chitta shuddhi by being dedicated even in that.
D. There are umpteen sources for brahma athma gyanam like ithihasa puranam dharma shastram shlokam namasankeertanam etc., other than veda adhyayanam and prayogam
E. Sthree dharmam specifically applicable for women hasn't approved women for vedam patanam and they be doing sushrushai to veda adhikari i.e., her husband and obtain the fruits
3. Methodology to build consensus amongst sanathanis importantly matadhipathis/pontiffs that and measures that could be adopted for making learning of vedam practicable for women
Thanks,
Adiyen,
Srivathsan
P.S: The links for all articles from part 2 aren't opening for me since this morning yet I read all of them sometime back when they were opening. Is there a problem in links?
Thanks Mr Srivathsan for heeding my request to write here.
On reading your tweet I had a doubt whether you had read all the 5 parts, now confirmed that you have read only this part.
I don't know why the links are not opening - may be because blogger was updated quite a few times after I posted these links.
Anyway you can open the web version of this blog and see the archived links in the side bar. Once you finish reading all the 5 parts, come back if your question still persists.
Thank you.
Madam, I revisited other parts which I already gave a read sometime back. If I can in a line put the whole series is that "Bhakthi the ultimate state that one needs to reach with perfection is attainable whether or not a person undergoes karma baagham adhyayanam. I even listened to Velukkudi swami's upanyasam where he explained that Athatho Brahma Jigyasa was made lucid by Ramanuja that one may not have to go through a tough cycle of learning vedam with shadangam for eligibility but even if a person with his/her love as a true seeker approaches, this ichhai itself will be considered an eligibility.
My question still persists. If what we all are aspiring that bhakthi then it is easily obtainable with constant namasankeerthanam bhajans alone. This is applicable to every human around the world. So does that mean we all can comfortably stop all veda adhyayanam sandhyavandanam, pitru kaaryam and all srautha smartha karma? I don't know who is in favour of this!! We could even attain moksham just by feeding stray animals and social service- paropakaram then becomes a upaayam. Thousands of kinds of activities that we see around us happening can become an upaayam. Of which I feel no one is going to dispute that learning vedas is one of the very important means. So Indo not know why if a woman wants to travel through that route she has to be denied. Society cannot at that moment cite various other means and say they all lead the same path. So why not everyone else go through other paths but certain selected few(read as brahmin males) claim ownership and adhikaratvam over it. Its like the Rajinikanth dialogue- en vazhi thani vazhi. Seendadha. I don't know what adhikaram one has to claim exclusivity to learning vedam.
I again tell my questions persist.
Thanks,
Adiyen,
Srivathsan
Thanks for the response Mr Srivathsan.
I think you are reading other blogs too on similar topic, but written by Mr Ramanathan. My dashboard shows readership for those blogs. Suggest you to read
How difficult is the life of a Brahmana http://jayasreesaranathan.blogspot.com/2013/02/how-difficult-is-life-of-brahmana.html
and
Introduction to Veda Adhyayana http://jayasreesaranathan.blogspot.com/2013/01/introduction-to-veda-adhyayana-guest.html
Vedic learning is not an easy work, even for men who are completely dedicated to it.
And then there is the concept of married couple is part of Vedic performance where only the male can do yajna with female being his Atman. Watch my 5th video on Indic Past wherein I have talked about it in the wedding of Svaha with Agni. All married women are like Svaha, who can direct, counsel and guide but don't take up the end result itself.
Also read Pati, patni and Vivaha http://jayasreesaranathan.blogspot.com/2008/05/pati-patni-aur-vivaha.html
Whether we agree or not the woman and man are complementary pair with specific internal make up. So even if a woman learns Vedas, she cannot officiate a yajna for then the yajna cannot be fulfilled.
Vedic learning had become an obsession nowadays perhaps due to the hype created by AIT issues. Vedas are not 'be all and end all'. Watch my 5th video, where I have shown a time period when Rig veda was not yet born. Vedas have to be preserved, and to do that employ the means given. Even in the list given in part 1, the samples are very few and vedic learning was not a trend or regular practice in those days. On the other hand, becoming a Brahma vadini was common. We should not confuse the two.
Madam, thanks for your time and reply. I did not read any blogs written by shri.Ramanathan. I'll surely read your referred articles and videos. Yet I feel marriage is also has long been an obbession as any knowledge and duty of a woman is usually related with her vivaham. If we are unable to speak beyond the concept of vivaham for a woman for her ujjivanam and udharanam it squarely negates the very concept of sanathana dharma that we are talking of it as addressing individual jeevathma. The idea of vedic studies I'm telling is not for a women to be appointed as a priest or earn a living out it or taking up purohita jobs.
I also do not intend to advocate preservation of vedam to be taken up by any specific party be it male or female. If vedam are eternal and the essence of natural cosmic order, nature will take its own course to reveal and maintain its own order. It is the duty of ParaBrahmam. People need not be bothered about it
My pov is that the hoard of divine knowledge in vedam must be available sans discrimination and claiming exclusivity on the basis of birth. Various doors for learning including vedam cannot be closed on birth based qualification but systems for improvement of any kind of person and giving opportunity for development is necessary. In everyday life we are mitigating atleast a dozen risks and saving ourselves from hazards hence whatever be the built of women it wouldn't have been a difficult task for our great efficient and effulgent rishis and rishikas to device a method that negates the possible bodily harm that might be caused in a women. I'm also not sure how far the argument that women can't withstand the hardships attributable in learning vedam is tenable as it indirectly means all women were living like princesses without physical and mental hardships since they didn't practice vedam. It's enough to look back just 100 years before their status and how much of physical labour and pain has to be exerted in doing even daily jobs at home. So physically as well as mentally women still were suffering equally if not more than men
Anyways I'm standing in shores of the ocean knowledge of sanathana dharmam. I only wish the society remains non discriminatory
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