Recap:
Discussion
on the non-suitability of the astronomy software for dating Mahabharata
continues:
Three
features were highlighted in Part 2.
(1) The division
of the zodiac in the astronomy software is not the same as in the Vedic
astrology. The equinoxes, the solstices and the signs shift with time in the
simulator but they don’t shift in the same way in the Vedic system.
(2) The Tropical
Julian day used in the astronomy simulator is shorter than the Vedic
sidereal day. As a result, a date picked out in the astronomy software for a
specific planetary combination cannot be the same in the Vedic system, both for
the date and the planetary combination.
(3)
The calculation of the location of the planets and the
stars differ greatly between the two systems.
Having finished the first two features in the preceding parts, I will focus on the third feature in this part for which I will take up Mr. Nilesh Oak’s date of 5561BCE. His date suffers from all the defects highlighted so far in using the astronomy simulator. In addition to them he had committed a grave blunder in the use of the scientific concept for locating a star.
The example I want to give in this regard is his claim that the star Arundhati went ahead of the star Vasishtha for 6000 long years.
What
was the basis of this claim? The astronomy software and the star catalogs
given by western astronomy sources are the basis.
All
these calculate the star position from the vernal equinox of that time.
Let me show a sample case in Figure 30 on the location of the star Sirius.
Figure 30:
Determination of the star-position in western astronomy
(Source: http://www.pas.rochester.edu/~blackman/ast104/coordinates.html )
The
location of a star is noted by Right
ascension (celestial longitude) and declination
(celestial latitude) in western astronomy. The right ascension (RA) is
noted from the vernal equinox of the day. The figure shows the vernal equinox
as of today, at Pisces. Note the first point of Aries with Aswini is at the
point M, shown by an arrow in the figure. That is the point to which the Vedic society corrected
the deviations by ayanamsa.[1]
That location is of no concern to western astronomers.
They always note the RA from the vernal equinox of a given time. It is
presently at P - Pisces.
Now
go back in time to Mr Oak’s date, 5561 BCE when Arundhati was said to have
walked ahead of Vasishtha. Though RA alone does not decide the location of
the star (Declination also is added as shown in Figure 30), one must remember
that it was calculated from the vernal equinox of that time, that was derived
by a standard formula of extrapolation of the coordinates of the current epoch
(say, J2000) to 7561 years ago (5561 + 2000).
At
the current rate of precession at 72 years per degree, the vernal equinox is
located 105 degrees away
from its current position on the ecliptic (7561 / 72).
Counted in forward direction from the
current location, the vernal equinox can be located at Gemini 21 degrees
for the year 5561 BCE. The star Punarvasu starts at that degree. That would be
treated as the first point of Aries in the astronomy simulator! In other words,
Punarvasu becomes the star Asvini from which the RA of Arundhati and Vasishtha
would be calculated.
That was the first point of Aries in 5561 BCE in the tropical,
western astronomy zodiac. Let me do an illustration of the star
positions of that time from Gemini (Figure 31)
Figure 31: Aries
around ‘P’ in Gemini in 5561 BCE
In
Figure 31, Point P is Punarvasu. In the year 5561 BCE, Arundhati’s Right ascension is calculated from the
vernal equinox on the ecliptic corresponding to ‘P’ in Gemini. The
Arundhati – Vasishtha binary located in the north will be seen at a different
angle from Gemini than from, say, at Aries. For that date, the simulator shows
the ecliptic plane slightly tilted, causing the Saptarishi Mandala tilted than
normal. The resultant modification in the RA of Arundhati is taken up by Mr.
Nilesh Oak to justify Arundhati ‘walking’ ahead of Vasishtha.
Only
in the western model RA is calculated from the vernal equinox of a given time.
This is for astronomy purposes. There is no RA concept in Vedic astronomy. This
is the first deviation
from the Vedic astronomy.
The
star having lower RA is said to cross the meridian at a given place earlier
than the star having higher RA. This was calculated from mid-Gemini point in
the year 5561 BCE. This is
second deviation from the Vedic concept.
As
per the rule a star is located by first measuring the RA on the celestial
equator from the vernal point of the time, and then from there the declination
is seen. Mr. Oak did not follow this rule of locating the star. He only noted
the RA of Arundhati and Vasishtha and calculated the difference in RA of the
two. This is the third
deviation. Figure 32 is taken from Mr.Oak’s book on Mahabharata date. When RA of Arundhati minus RA of Vasishtha gave rise to a negative value, he treated it as a proof of Arundhati walking ahead of Vasishta. He identified 6000 long years running with this negative value as The Epoch of Arundhati. He located Mahabharata in this period.
Figure 32:
Difference in RA treated as a marker for Arundhati going ahead
The
negative value was caused by the lower RA of Arundhati. Whenever Arundhati had
lower RA than Vasishtha, she was crossing the meridian before Vasishtha – this
is the scientific theory promoted by Mr. Oak.
Does
science say so? Let us find out the answer.
In Figure 31, the star Sirius is located by both RA and Declination. The RA is a point on the Celestial equator shown in red and indicated by an arrow mark in red. The height of the star (declination) on north or south of the celestial equator is linked with the RA. In other words a star’s location is derived by two coordinates - RA and declination.
Mr. Oak has conveniently dropped the declination factor. He has taken up ONLY the value of RA on the CELESTIAL EQUATORIAL plane. That will locate Arundhati on the celestial equator and not on her true location in the north near the Pole star.
Figure 33:
Arundhati lies on the Celestial Equator in Oak’s theory
The RA extends from the vernal equinox of the day (point of intersection of the ecliptic and the celestial equator) on the celestial equator. Mr. Oak compared the RA of Arundhati and Vasishtha on the celestial equator. He did not take up the declination value into consideration. He stopped at the RA point on the celestial equator. In his model Arundhati just stops at the Celestial equator while the star is lying somewhere high up in the north of the ecliptic.
Only when declination is also enumerated it would be known that the binary was circumnavigating the pole star on that date. In circumpolar motion there is no forward or backward position for the stars in a binary. Mr. Oak lost the opportunity to know about all that, by sticking to only the RA, but if he had added declination too, his ‘research’ would have been a non-starter.
The
problem is multi-faceted in Mr. Oak’s theory.
·
Use of tropical zodiac and tropical
degrees.
·
Using only RA for locating the star.
·
For vernal equinox in Gemini, the summer
solstice would be around the middle of Virgo.
·
Winter solstice (Uttarayana) would be around
the middle of Pisces!
None of them are part of Vedic astronomy, nor of Mahabharata.
The additional problem is that the planetary positions are enumerated from the vernal equinox of the day. This is not so in Vedic astrology. The planetary positions shown by Mr. Oak or anyone else, from the astronomy software are tropical degrees not adjusted by ayanamsa - that I highlighted in Part 1
Vedic concept about the Arundhati-Vasishtha pair
Arundhati-
Vasishtha and the Saptarishi Mandala were all the time circulating the
Dhruva nakshatra. The name Dhruva is given to just one
star and not to all the pole stars. Only three pole stars have been
recognized by the Vedic society – Dhruva, Agni and Kashyapa – at times Agni, recognized along with
Indra. They are in the tail of Shishumara, the
Gangetic Porpoise. Among Dhruva , Agni and Kashyapa, Dhruva is the most
excellent says, Vayu Puarana. Dhruva
is remembered as the fourth after Agni, Indra and Kashyapa, says Brahmanda Purana. The count of the
Northern pole stars does not go beyond Dhruva. The Saptarishis always go around
them.
In
the to and fro oscillation model of the equinoxes, the polar points also
oscillate within 54 degrees and not
go around for 360 degrees. The constellation, Ursa Minor is found to fit
exactly with 54 degree span. The star Polaris at the end of this constellation
matches with Dhruva. The oscillation can be depicted as in Figure 34.
Figure 34:
Dhruva Mandala in Shishumara
The
Saptarishi constellation moves around some point of the 54 degree span for all
ages in the past and the future. However, only the middle and the two end
points of Ursa Minor seem to be considered as the three Pole stars – Kashyapa,
Agni and Dhruva. Figure 35 shows the Vedic conception of the Dhruva Mandala
circumambulated by the Saptarishis.
Figure 35: Saptarishis
revolve around the Dhruva Mandala in the Vedic system.
The long observational history of the Vedic ancestors not only enabled them to know about the to and fro oscillation of the equinoxes but also the everlasting circumambulation of the Saptarishis around the Dhruva Mandala, identified with ‘Shishumara’ (Ursa Minor) stretching to an extent of 54 degrees. The star Polaris at the tail of Shishumara was the star Dhruva, the son of Uttanapada. No other star was known as Dhruva. Vyasa’s reference to Dhruva having moved in the reverse direction was about this Dhruva, known as Polaris today. Ramayana reference to Saptarishis and Abhijit circumambulating Dhruva was about this Dhruva only.
Beyond
this Dhruva Mandala, Vishnu’s
Paramam Padam is located. In reality, a satellite galaxy of the Milky
Way Galaxy by name Ursa Minor Dwarf is
found located there. This had “a straightforward evolutionary history with a
single burst of star formation that lasted around 2 billion years and took
place around 14 billion years ago”.[2]
This galaxy right behind the Dhruva Mandala was the oldest in existence right
from the time of Big Bang.
The
Vedic concept of the Saptarishis and their movement being different, we cannot
manufacture new ideas from the astronomy software and claim it to be Vedic. Let
me show the mismatch of this concept with the western concept. Figure 36 shows the
western concept of precession circle with the Saptarishis lying outside the
circle.
Figure 36:
Saptarishi Mandala in astronomy software
Each point in the precession circle in Figure 36 represents the Northern Celestial Pole (NCP). The star Thuban is rounded in the figure, beyond which lies the Saptarishi Mandala. In the case of continuous precession, Thuban becomes the likely pole star. The star Abhijit is noted at the bottom of the circle.
Figure 37: The
path of the Saptarishis away from most NCPs
Figure 37 maps the path
of the Saptarishis to show that it would be closely circulating the NCP of just
one section of the circle, while it cannot be seen circulating many other
points of the NCP, particularly Abhijit. One must imagine the visual appearance of the Saptarishis circulating the NCP as seen from the earth. When Abhijit became the NCP 10,000
years ago in this model, the Saptarishis could have crossed the sky from
east to west and not circumnavigated Abhijit when seen from India. Figure 38 shows this kind of movement at the
date of Ramayana given by Mr.Oak when he theorizes Abhijit was the pole star. The picture is taken from Stellarium software.
Figure 38: Saptarishis
were not circling Abhijit in 12,209 BCE (Mr. Oak’s date of Ramayana)
One can compare Figures
37 and 38 to see the path taken by the Saptarishis if Abhijit becomes the pole
star. Saptarishis are not going around Abhijit but only crossing the sky from
east to west. This is never
conceptualized in the Vedic society. The western astronomy model fails
to fulfill the Vedic concept.
Suppose we take up the
limited span of 54 degrees of Shishumara, the Saptarishis would be seen
circulating any one star of that constellation at any time. (Figure 39)
Figure 39:
Saptarishis around the Shishumara
The
54 degree span is marked on the circle coinciding with the ends of Shishumara
(Ursa Minor). In this model, the Saptarishis would be perpetually
circumambulating the pols stars identified in Shishumara, but Thuban could never be the Pole star. Thuban lies well outside the Shishumara and hence could never have been the pole star.
The
above digression from the core topic was to show the deviations in the star positions
and their movement in the astronomy simulator. The Vernal equinox is dislocated
to a distance in the western model. The location of the stars and the planets from
the dislocated vernal point make them appear in ways that have never been stated by the Vedic rishis.
Only a society that had existed for long could have seen the Saptarishis always oriented towards Dhruva. This is completely beyond the comprehension of the westerners, of the astronomy software they designed.
Astronomy softwares are of course accurate - for the settings and the purposes they are designed. Definitely they do not cater to the concepts of Vedic astronomy-astrology. The calculation of planetary positions is not the same as in the Vedic system. The signs and the equinoctial positions are not the same. The coordinates taken for calculating the planetary and the star positions are not the same. The faux pas by Mr.Oak in this point is completely unscientific.
By now I have established the unsuitability of the astronomy software for dating Mahabharata (applicable to Ramayana too) by two case studies, 3067 BCE of Dr. Manish Pandit and 5561BCE of Mr. Nikesh Oak.
Every dating
research based on astronomy software deserves to be rejected. Then how to go about deciphering the date
of Mahabharata? Only Kali Yuga date offers the clue to arrive at the year of
Mahabharata war. But the current Indological community is allergic to the word Kali
Yuga. Let me take up the issues around Kali Yuga date and mathematically prove the
date in the next part.
(To
be continued)
[1]
That is the presumed point of the beginning of Aries, and no one knows today
the exact point identified by the ancient people. There may be slight
deviations from this point for different ayanamsa systems.
[2]
Ursa Minor Dwarf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursa_Minor_Dwarf
12 comments:
Dear Dr. Jayasreeji,
You have taken a lot of trouble for this work, but I am unable to agree to your use of the name Abhijit fot Vega, Abhijit was the star in the zodiac near the Shravana nakshatra and it went away (i.e., died, as found by the Astro-scientists) around ~3200 BCE, and the Mahabharata also mentions so.
Secondly, you seem to have made a very strange statement that Thuban could never be the Pole star. What then, according to you, was going to be the the Pole start around the time of th Mahabharata war. The Polaris is becoming the Pole star only now in 2021 CE (AD).
Regards,
sunil K. Bhattacharjya.
Dear Dr. Sunil ji,
Thuban will become a pole star in continuous precession cycle of the western model, not in Indic precession of to and fro. I have written volumes on it. Please read them. For immediate reference read this where I have produced illustrations http://jayasreesaranathan.blogspot.com/2021/03/arundhati-vasishtha-in-western-vs-indic.html
I dont know how you are able to believe "died, as found by the Astro-scientists"
For quick reference check out this. http://jayasreesaranathan.blogspot.com/2021/03/limitations-of-astronomy-simulators-for.html
Fig 23 tells what is meant by Abhijit retiring to the forest.
Dear Dr. Jayasreeji,
Let me take the first point about the disappearance of Abijit. The Stars do die and our Sun too is dying every moment as its hydrogen fuel is getting depleted gradually. Our Sun is middle-aged now and in another ~6 bilion years or so It will expand and brighten up for short period before dying and then lose the brightness and would become a white dwarf and will be lesser and lesser visible. That exactly happened to Abhijit. Physically a star cannot move from the ecliptic region to the pole-region. I read a paper by astronomers about 14 years ago, who proved that Abhijit disappeared ~5,000 years.
As regards the Thuvan, it fully fits into what the Mahabharata says that the Dhruva was approaching us, around that period. How can Polaris, the present-day pole -start could have
been the Pole star around the time of the Mahabharata war? That is simply not possible. Vega was the polestar ~14,000 years ago and it will again become the pole-star in another ~12,000 years. Hope that helps.
Regards
Dear Dr.Sunil ji.
No comments, except that I didn't say Polaris was the pole star of Mahabharata. Polaris was the Dhruva, the son of Uttanapada. Vyasa noticed a reversal in its movement.
I suggest you read my articles.
Dear Dr. Jayasreeji,
I am sorry if I have hurt you. I am feeling sad that you are losing faith in the modern astronomical softwares. Please have your faith back in the Modern softwares. That alone can help.
As regards Prof. Achar and Dr. Manish Pandit, they are a gone case, as they don't have faith in the Kali yuga start in 3102 BCE (-3101 Jul), even though modern softwares prove the planetary conjunction, with Jupiter in the beginning of Aries, closely followed by the other planets.
Regards,
Dear Dr. Sunil ji
Not hurt. You are yet to catch up with what I have written and proven on the to and fro motion of the equinoxes. So I wrote - no comments.
Thuban can't be a pole Star in that set up.
Dear Dr. Jayasreeji,
My only concern is that inspite of lot of theorizing, you are yet to find the Winter Solstice (WS) day, in the year of the Mahabharata war. I feel, WS is the most crucial factor in the dating of the Mahabharata war. Hope you will agree
Regards,
skn
.
Dear Dr.Sunil ji.
// you are yet to find the Winter Solstice (WS) day, in the year of the Mahabharata war. I feel, WS is the most crucial factor in the dating of the Mahabharata war. //
Is it?
// Hope you will agree//
I will agree that you are yet read my series.
Dear Dr. Jayasreeji,
You may think as you like, but it is clear to me that you have not found the date of the Winter Solstice in the year of the Mahabharata war. Otherwise you would have boldly disclosed the Winter Solstice (WS) date in the 3136 BCE, the year chosen by you.
Regards
Dear Dr. Sunil ji.
The entire series started from why Bhishma faltered from knowing the Uttarayana day.You choose to talk as you like. So be it. At least read this.
http://jayasreesaranathan.blogspot.com/2021/01/the-end-of-saga-of-bhishma-and.html
If precession of the equinox is central to determining Vedic observation of the sky based which the dates are being manipulated/stated, the precession is near circular, if not epileptic. any periodic circular/eclectic motion can be depicted as to and fro motion for simplicity, but to deny the actual nature of the motion itself sounds mind boggling. If the same software can be used to justify position of planets and justify the dates, how can one ignore other aspects depicted by the same software?
naked eyes finds mizar (vashistha) and Arundatti to be bianry system. now we know that it is a sextet based on modern Spectro-telescopic means, the phenomenon invisible to even the sharpest of naked eyes. but to deny that there are four more other stars with the binary system because it does not fit vedic observation would be denying the phenomenon oberserved by the vedic rishis. in fact using the mosder softwares, updating the ware with more data and analyzing the aspect of the Mizar/alcor system that to momentary (relative to the time line acor/arundatti takes to go around mizar/vashista in addition to the proper motion of the stars in that constellation around its center) might help explain why arundhati was seen leading vashistha for a while.
What kind of proofs have been collected to show that there was cuh a drastic changes in the refractive index of the sky/atmosphere at the time of mahabharata that did not happen before or after that?
sincerely
Read my book before commenting.
'Mahabharata 3136 BCE: Validation of the Traditional date'
Details of how to get it can be read here
https://jayasreesaranathan.blogspot.com/2021/11/published-my-new-book-mahabharata-3136.html
On Vedic concept of precession, more foreign nationals are reading my 5 part paper than Indians. Only a handful Indians who happen to be common man have understood the concept. But a foreigner on seeing even one anamoly, searches for the causes and lands up at my papers and start working on it. Even yesterday I dispatched 2 copies of my book to a scholar in Germany. All other Indians will wake up only after a foreigner has 'discovered' it, saying we Indians already knew....
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