Tuesday, July 21, 2020

Indic Past Series 8: Understanding the application of the Yuga concept.

The series so far:

The 8th part of the Indic Series makes a slight departure from the narrative tracing the development of the Indic past until the time of mini Ice age called Younger Dryas (11,000 years ago) when the planet Saturn was discovered and Vivasvan (the sun) was perceived as Martanda. These two developments place un-challengeable upper limits to the formation of two types of Yuga concepts, namely, the Catur Maha Yuga concept measuring the age of Brahma and the 5-year Yuga concept having practical application in the Vedic society. Therefore these two are discussed along with the Manvantra concept in three episodes before coming back to catch up with where we left.

The current episode gives a brief account on the Catur Maha Yuga concept that it is based on the planetary revolutions expressed in terms of Time and not applicable to human life. As such the view that Ramayana occurred in Treta Yuga lakhs of years ago has no basis. This is supported by highlighting the fact that the Indian landmass was not where it is now when the current Manvantra of Vaivasvata started.

The purpose of the Catur Maha Yuga is further explored by deciphering the dancing posture of Nataraja. The primary utility of the Catur Maha Yuga concept running into lakhs of years is to measure the entire span of space that is one-fourth of the manifest form of Brahman, in terms of time for which the basic unit is taken as the solar year. This concept could have been conceived only after 11,000 years BP (before present), for the very fact that this computation demands knowledge of the five Tara grahas[i] that include Saturn.  

This Yuga concept is also matched with current science on Big Bang. It is found that we are in the 2nd day of Brahma after the Big Bang event. This concept also reveals that the night kalpa of Brahma started 1.16 billion years before the Big Bang.

This is followed by a discussion on how the knowledge of the fundamentals of this concept is essential for solving some of the tricky issues found in Mahabharata. Four issues are solved using the fundamentals.

1.      The Amanta system has been in vogue ever since the Yuga concept was perceived. As such the origins of Purnimanta system antedates the discovery of Saturn and could be traced to the south of the equator which we will be discussing in a future episode.

2.      The verses of Mahabharata pertaining to sensing the arrival of Kali during the Mahabharata war are not about the computational Catur Yuga concept that is planet based, but about the nature of Time - as adharmic. In such scenario within a short period, any one of the four yugas can be sensed in any order and even found changing quickly from one to another. This will be elaborated in the 10th episode.

3.      The Rahu- Ketu axis is an essential pre-condition for determining the evidence on an eclipse. This axis comes back to the same signs at the end of 18 years (since they complete one revolution around the zodiac in 18 years). This axis was in Pisces – Virgo at the time of the beginning of the Kali Maha Yuga when all the planets except Rahu congregated at the beginning of Aries. They must have been hovering around the same signs at the time of Mahabharata war that took place on the 36th year before Kali Yuga began.

Unfortunately most research works on Mahabharata date show this axis in Taurus- Scorpio by wrongly interpreting the 13 day twin lunation as twin eclipses.

4.      How the lack of knowledge of the fundamentals leads to mis-interpretations is demonstrated pictorially the process of the tithi concept. Amavasya can happen starting from 14th to 15th tithi or from 15th to 16th (technically it is the 1st tithi otherwise), but never from 13th 14th tithi. If that happens it means the moon’s path is shortened which is impossible to happen.

Vyasa (others too including Karna, Krishna, Balarama) was appalled on seeing Amavasya occurring on Trayodashi. He was anxiously watching the next phase which also ended on the 13th tithi, on the same star as in the previous month. This reduction can be caused by a reduction in the circumference of the orbit of the moon, which has no explanation other than a comet smashing on the moon, almost shaking it temporarily. A similar event shook off the moon in Raivataka manvantra which I will explain in the next episode.

[i] Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn are known as Tara Grahas.


Unknown said...

Appaently, eclipses within 13 days seems possible.

Please refer a short write up in Boloji.com


It tells that ..

'The plot shows that during the period 3300BC to 700 BC, (Julian year corresponds to zero at 4712 BC- an imaginary date- Our range corresponds to 1412 Julian year to 4012 Julian Year) nearly 672 pairs of eclipses occurred on earth, which in principle may have been visible at Kurukshethra. Amongst these, nearly 32 pairs would be occurring for period less than 14 days. Many of these were found to be weak penumbral eclipses of moon, and solar eclipses had such low obscurity as to raise the issue whether any body could see them. Six pairs of 'thirteen day' eclipses could be seen unambiguously.'

The last line is important.



Jayasree Saranathan said...

@ Chakraborty,

I have read it in those days and was awed at that time but that was until I read the text myself and checked with the simulators they used. I am constrained to say that Dr S. Balakrishna is responsible for ushering in this absurd "Simulator Era" for dating Itihasas. I have written and shown in my videos how these simulators are meaningless for dating Indic past. Concepts are at the verge of changing now with new insights in understanding precession by which the Simulator Era is going to come to an end. I will be posting shortly the 1st part of my series on this topic published in BV Raman's astrological magazine.

Now on the absurdities or mistakes in that article by Dr S.Balakrishna.

1. Penumbral eclipses are not recognized in the Vedic society. Penumbral eclipses came to be known only in modern era of gadgets and technology. So rule out any reference on penumbral eclipses.

2. Note the 2nd point in his conclusion. He doesn't know what is meant by the 13th day. I highlighted this in the video that Vyasa had clearly stated 'tithi' - trayodashi, Caturdashi, Pancadasi etc, and not solar days or nakshatra days. To know the difference in a simple way, pick out a Tamil pancanga (because they only are complete Pancangas) and check for the current Kataka maasa (Aadi). It has 32 solar days, 30 nakshatra days and 31 tithis. At times 30 tithis in 32 solar days also occur. This is because of the range in the circumference of the lunar orbit shifting within certain limits. I will explain in the next point why this range cannot give rise to amavasya or pournami on the 13th tithi.

In the current point, please note Dr Balakrishna had just dabbled with 'days' without knowing that it is about tithi of a fixed duration of 12 degrees. That is why I said emphatically "knowledge of fundamentals" is a precondition before one attempts to date. Without knowing that it is about tithi, he talks everything else and has become a trend setter for other simulator based dating.


Jayasree Saranathan said...

3. The moon is at 252,088 miles away from us at the farthest distance and at 225,623 miles when it is at the closest. The average orbital distance is 238,855 miles. At the average distance 30 phases occur.
The duration of a phase at average distance = 238,855 / 30 = 7961.8 miles

Now let us find out the range between the closest and farthest
252088 - 238855 = 13233 miles

This divided by 7961.8 = 1.66

This means that between the closest and the farthest the phases can vary within 2 phases (1.66) only. At the father 15 +1

At the closest 15-1

That is why never it is stated in any text of astrology that amavasya or pournami can happen on 13th tithi. If 13th tithi lunation occurs that means the moon has come closer by 6000 + miles. This drift can happen over millions of years but not in a day and within a phase or twice within a month.

But then the moon had bounced back to its original position. And Vyasa had seen the pournami in Krittika star when it was Margashira month!! Only in the previous waxing phase of Karthika month, Krishna left for peace mission on Revati day. That month pournami occurred at Krittika. At the end of that month only (waning phase) this 13th tithi amavasya occurred. Then started Margashira when Vyasa was watching day and the moon growing red and lackluster up to Krittika.

These two (1) Moon bouncing back to normal orbit and (2) Pournami occuring at Krittika in Karthika and Margazhi are the hints to know what happened.

Moreover Karna referred to the reduction in karana in his conversation with Krishna just before trayodashi amavasya. Karana is half the tithi, that is 6 degrees. Read my book https://www.amazon.in/MYTH-EPOCH-ARUNDHATI-NILESH-NILKANTH-ebook/dp/B07YVFNQLD/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_pl_foot_top?ie=UTF8

I have tweeted that table some time ago. Let me search for it and give the link.

Hope this clarifies your doubts.

Jayasree Saranathan said...

@ Chakraborty

Please check out this link of my tweet on how amavasya was sighted on Trayodashi. Karna observed Gara Karana on Chitra star by which we understand the loss of a tithi. Given the normal span and also the changed span if Gara was on Chitra.

Unknown said...

Ok. Thanks.



Ahamaaya said...

Namaste Srimati Jayasree

There is a telling line in this post which discusses Yugas as presented in Mahabharata as well as in various Puranas. That the Yugas are dynamic and that we are lost roaming around in circles with the mere sthoolartha of the word Yuga. May I humbly suggest that more focus be put on that particular thought?

It is so specified in various Puranas as well as Panchadasi as well as many other Shastric works that the Yugas are only valid in Bharatavarsha. Does that mean - going by the literal application of Yugas to the concept of time - that the Yugas are not present in the Americas or Africa?

Your works and your website reflect a very meticulous approach to our Shastras and Gyana in general. May I suggest that you peruse our Puranas for more accuracy and for the Sukshartha of the concept of Yugas?


Jayasree Saranathan said...



This Yuga is computational and different from the Yuga identified by the extent of dharma present at a time. Written about it here https://www.academia.edu/attachments/64287503/download_file?st=MTU5ODc3MzQyOCwxNzEuNzguMTQwLjUx&s=swp-splash-paper-cover

My 10th part in the Indic Past series (yet to be uploaded) is about Dharma as the scale of Yuga. This series consists of videos containing more info than written here. Presently you will see 9th video on Manvantaras in my you tube page.

On your question if yugas are not applicable to places like say, the US., this is my understanding.
As per Sanjaya’s version Yuga classification is applicable to Bharata Varsha only. To know why we have dissect his version of Yuga given in that context by Sanjaya. I did that in the above mentioned link of academia. Check Part 1 - sub heading - contradiction to 100 years of age.

There he does not talk about the computational Yuga, but the length of time that a particular lineage could go. India did have long chain of people all these days. This is not so anywhere else.

This should solve a doubt if those Hindus living in places outside India can follow Yuga scale in sankalpa mantras. They can and they should, for that Yuga is universal, computational. You will understand this better when you read that article in the link where I have deduced the rationale of sankalpa.

Hope this answered your queries.

Ahamaaya said...

Namaste Smt. Jayasree

The confusion lies deeper I feel. How do you interpret Bharatavarsha as India? If you really do that then we really need to map out the other aspects provided in our Shastras and Scriptures. What about the 14 Bhuvanas (which are really Vyahritis)? What about the 7 Dweepas, 7 Oceans, 7 Parvatas and so on.

It is not only Sanjaya who talks about Yugas being applicable to Bharatavarsha. Our scriptures (Puranic literature) is replete with references to Yugas.

You are absolutely right about Dharma being the scale of Yuga. Even then the Yugas refer to Swadharma. I would love to read that.

When you try to map Yugas to timelines and from then on to Kalpas and Manvantharas we still have to come to terms with the fact that we need to assimilate all this as 'Brahma iva aham asmi'.

I feel that all our Vidyas and Shastras will benefit from an intrinsic Indian outlook (a Bharatiya Darshana, if you will) rather than approaching all this from the view of archaeo astronomy or other such views. Again I mention this only because I see your seriousness and unstinting effort.


PS - The academia paper requires a registration and sign in; hence I did not peruse it. If there is a way it can be put out as an email or even as a post on this blog I would be happy to go through it.

Ahamaaya said...

Also it goes without saying that I agree about there being no need to change any Sankalpa mantras. Regardless of where they are in this Bhu loka they will still be in BharataVarshe BharataKhande. That right there is a great clue to where our scriptures are guiding us gently towards, I feel.

Just as our divine geography is not to be mapped to our local geography, aspects of time in our scriptures just do not match time as we experience it here on Earth.

Jayasree Saranathan said...

@Anamaaya (Your name please)

The confusion lies deeper in you. Seems you are a beginner. Lot of confused and mixed up ideas seen in your comments. You have to start from the beginning. The academia paper is there as 4 parts in my blog.
Check out this link in which you will get the links to other parts.


Also watch all the videos in Indic Past series. Both Tamil and English versions are there. https://www.youtube.com/user/jayasartn/videos?view_as=subscriber

I don't wish to correct your second comment, because entire comment is wrong. You need to un-learn so many things before I can tell you or direct you to relevant articles. Sorry to say this. Good luck.

Ahamaaya said...

Namaste Jayasree,

I prefer to go by Ahamaaya. I happily accede to being a mere beginner.

Since I gather that you are not a beginner, I am sure you will explain to your readers as to how Sita came out of the Earth in Ramayana and Draupadi appeared out of fire in the Mahabharata. And I am sure you will also explain how you approach our Shastras with a fixed viewpoint of Rama and Krishna being actual human beings. If Itihasas translate as actual happenings in your scheme of things I am sure you will spend many a year trying to come up with explanations for almost every significant happening in them.

As for the Yugas....that which helps in Yoga (or joining) is a Yuga. As for trying archaeo astronomical approaches to explain our Shastras it only sadly goes on to emphasise how we are desperate for the so called Western or Scientific accreditation of our own sacred works. Without exception all our works are adhyatmic. They do not deal with real characters or the star called Sun etc. etc.

Your link on the two sides of Yuga still reflect the same seemingly-scientific approach towards our Shastras.

I gather that you are not quite patient enough to discuss with beginners like me. Not an issue. Kindly go through the Adi Parva of the Mahabharata (in Sanskrit). It may or may not help. But here I have to part ways.

Shubham astu