Thursday, June 11, 2009

Giving life to Aryan Invasion theory?

The following article is a fascinating argument by someone who can not accept the crumbling down of the Aryan Invasion theory. The author has labored well to capture different people of the Indian sub-continent to show how they all bear resemblance to people outside India. The author's agenda behind his arguments is that Indians had received inputs from the superior races (Aryans) from  outside India for the past 17,000 years.

But common sense tells us that if a country has people who bear resemblance to many (almost all) kinds of people who are presently found outside that country, then it is deduced that the spread had happened from that country to outside and not the other way round.

Every type of ethnic resemblance is found in some groups in India. It is preposterous to think all these ethnic groups have desecnded on India in the past, left their imprints and left. On the contrary it makes sense to say that the Indian land mass (the Larger India that stretched to the Indian Ocean in the past) had many groups of people with distinct features and characteristics and they spanned out in course of time.

This is perhaps what is menat by the Gothra rishis of the Hindu system. Each rishi was considered as a progenitor of a particular clan and each clan was distinguishable from one another on many ways. This Gothra origin which is still in vogue in India may perhaps explain why we have so many varieties in India. Each variety grew and spread out in due course.

About the gothra basis for genetic variation,

Links to other posts on this topic are given at the end of the article.

- jayasree


The Peopling of India

Repost from the old site. A very interesting post speculating about the peopling of the Indian subcontinent, with lots of pics of Indian racial types and attempts to categorize them.

The peopling of India is a mystery. As my Indian doctor told me, India is as old as dirt. There are various narratives in India, but none of them make any sense, as usual.

Hindus believe something like that Hindus have always been in India, so if you say anything scientifically different, the Hindu fundamentalist boneheads are going to freak out and probably even threaten you. Wonderful people, and surely as stupid as any Christian or Muslim fundamentalist anywhere.

Within India, there is a lot of debate about whether or not there was an Aryan invasion that conquered the indigenous Dravidians, relegated them to the South of India, and imposed a ferociously racist Hindu caste system on the darker Dravidians – with Whiter Brahmins and higher castes being on top and darker Dravidian types being put in the lower castes.

Actually, caste in India is quite complex. High caste Indians from South India are often quite dark, and lower caste Indians from the North can be quite light. However, there is a general tendency for higher castes to be lighter skinned. In particular, for Indian women, Whiter has always been better, and Indian women have been trying to lighten their skins for as long as anyone can remember.

It is also interesting that, although inter-caste marriage was supposedly forbidden and enforced with serious penalties, the Brahmins have been getting progressively darker down through the centuries. Gee, how did that happen? Race mixing! Horror of horrors!

The Aryan Invasion theory is actually most popular with Dalits or untouchables. Supposedly they had a paradise down there until these evil White Aryans invaded and imposed evil caste Hinduism on the natives. In truth, Hinduism may be as old as India itself.

Surely, it seems to date back before any Aryan invasion. It seems to be the case that the Aryans may have superimposed caste on native Indian Hinduism though, and caste probably did not exist in the original religion.

The Aryan Invasion theory is also popular with White nationalists, see they see it as normal that Whiter folks should declare themselves superior to, and treat like shit, darker folks. The notion that there are two separate races in India, darker, inferior Dravidians and Whiter, superior Aryans is often added to this. In truth, all Indians are best seen as one coherent group.

An interesting collection of Northern Pakistani types, who resemble in type the Northern Indians such as Punjabis. The guy on the left, I swear, could be a Greek fisherman and the guy with the slicked-back hair could easily be an Italian. The fellow on the right and the one on the second to left are more classic North Indid types.

I think it's pretty hilarious that so many White nationalist morons say that this kid is not White. With a constricted mindset like that, WN is doomed for sure. Look real hard at this kid and tell me he's not White. This is a Pashtun kid (with a non-human kid on his shoulders) from northern Pakistan – specifically, the area where the Pakistani Taliban and Al Qaeda leadership is thought to be hiding.

She's not White? Says who? Says White nationalists, that's who. Another interesting Pashtun from northwest Pakistan. This is where you find the most European-looking types in the area. They live in Afghanistan and Pakistan, with the greatest concentration in Nuristan, Kunar, Dir and Chitral. This girl could easily be an Italian.

A young Pakistani Pashtun girl with her little sister. I understand that these women are quite beautiful, but in this region, they go into purdah, or isolation, at puberty, and pretty much no one ever gets to see them anymore. They probably spend most of their time after that in a burka or some other stupid bag thing. Too bad. Nowadays, these poor girls are going to even have a hard time going to school.

An Afghan man from Chitral, where the most European types can be found. Take off the turban, put him on any street in America, and he's just another White dude. I think that bin Laden may be hiding in the area of Chitral and across the border in Kunar and Nuristan, though Dir in Pakistan is the best bet of all.

Yes, a red-haired Pashtun. I think this guy is from Afghanistan. Pashtuns describe themselves as Aryans, and say that they are the base that the European Whites came from. No one really knows, but the White European type that we know today probably came into existence with the spread of Indo-European across the continent 8,000 years ago.

White skin only shows up in Europe 9,000 years ago, and at 11,000 years ago, Europeans look something like Middle Easterners, so maybe the Aryans were the original Europeans. Who knows. Unfortunately, Hitler's Nazi regime was roaming around in these parts searching for the original White man or original Aryan or whatever.

Hence the word Aryan, mangled by Nazis to idiotically mean Nordic, has fallen into disgrace. But it deftly describes all of these North Indid types we are looking at in this section.

Another Afghan Pashtun. Unfortunately, it is the Pashtuns who are leading the insurgency against the US in Afghanistan.

Interestingly, the Brahmins themselves have totally rejected this theory lately, so if someone vociferously rejects the Aryan invasion theory, they are probably high-castes or Hindu fundamentalists. The motivation is unsure, but they seem to be denying that caste is a bad thing or that it was imposed by evil invaders.

This is often leavened with dollops of caste is a good thing, or caste is normal, or caste hardly exists anymore talk, or other pro-caste propaganda. I have yet to meet a high-caste Indian who will denounce caste. If you ever meet one, please introduce them to me.

Recent research on the question is difficult, but there is a suggestion that an Aryan invasion may have occurred. Although all Indians are one major ethnic group, higher castes seem more related to Europeans and lower castes seem more related to Asians. There is also a northwest – southeast cline, with those towards the northwest being more European and those towards the southeast becoming more Asian.

Nevertheless, the best evidence is that Indians are a coherent race (they cluster together on genetic tests and there is no way to winnow out Aryans and Dravidians via genes) and they have been evolving, more or less in situ, with few outside inputs, for a good 15-20,000 years. Let's call it 17,000 years. Where did the Indians come from prior to 17,000 years ago? Evidence suggests the Middle East.

What is interesting about this theory is that we know that Indians look like Aborigines until about 8,000 years ago, when they begin to transition to Caucasians. So does this mean that the proto-Indians of the Middle East were Australoid types? You tell me. Racially, peoples of either the Middle East or Europe are poorly known at such an early date.

Indians and Dravidians are outside Caucasoids (but not by much) on the Cavalli-Sforza genetic chart below, but we have to lump them into one of the big three, so to Caucasians they go.

Fig. 1:
Click to enlarge and view. As you can see on this Cavalli-Sforza gene chart of the human race, Indians are just a bit outside Caucasians. It is true that Indians on some charts are the most divergent Caucasians of all. We may use this to deduce that Indians may be, along with Berbers, some of the most ancient Caucasian stocks on Earth.

After all, the European racial type is only known from about 9,000 years ago or so. Just prior, they seem to have resembled Middle Easterners and way back, they have had dark skin and resembled Masai or Tutsis from Central Africa. On many genetic charts, Indians of both the northwest and the southeast tend to ride the divide between Asians and Caucasians very closely.

So, while Indians are Caucasians for sure, they are starting to get towards Asians. North Indians such as Punjabis have 10-15% recent Asian genes to boot.

There are some ancient peoples in India who may represent the earliest Indians of all. Most Indians probably don't want to believe this, as these folks are tribals who, while outside the caste system, are widely discriminated against.

This map shows the location of many of the obscure tribes described below that may be remnants of the first Indians. This old map uses racial classifications that are no longer used today. It is written in a foreign language, possibly German. Although it sounds creepy today, German scientists did a lot of good work involving the races of man in the early part of the 20th Century.
The notion that any investigation of race may lead to the Nazi catastrophe has curtailed most such research today, but intrepid folks like yours truly continue to venture forth where fools fear to tread.

Nagas of NE Asia, thought to be perhaps the original people of the area. The guy on the right looks Papuan, for Chrissake (Or does he?), while the guy on the left looks sort of SE Asian, but not quite. I put the Naga into a Tibetan Northeast Indian Race within Southeast Asians, but the situation is confused as to whether or not they should be lumped in with Tibetans or split off. If they were early Indian Australoids, they then bred in heavily with Tibetan types and got genetically swamped.

A nice looking young Naga girl. She almost looks Amerindian, especially Central American Amerindian, but that's just convergence. Maybe a hint of SE Asian?

Indian Caucasians are clearly some of the most ancient existing Caucasians, except for the Kalash.

Kalash woman with her two girls in Pakistan. The Kalash are so diverse that they form an entire split in the Caucasian Race. In other words, among Caucasians, there are Kalash in one race and all Kalash in another vast race. I do not know what this means, but I am thinking that the Kalash may be one of the oldest Caucasians in existence due to their extreme genetic distance.

More Kalash. A woman and her son. The general theory is that the Kalash came from the Caucasus. If the Kalash indeed are the remnants of the most ancient Caucasians, the origin in the Caucasus is interesting because the Caucasus plays a major role in the formation of the Caucasian race as a nexus.

Other major nexuses are India, the Middle East and North Africa. Cavalli-Sforza suggests that the oldest Caucasians were two parts Asian and one part Black, this going back 40-45,000 years in Southern Russia (=Caucasus?). It is interesting to note that many Kalash have some Asian features. My theory is that the two Asian parts of the proto-Caucasians were Ainu types and the one Black part was a Masai-Tutsi type, but hey, I'm guessing.

There is evidence that Indians go back 44-63,000 years in India. Going back that far, they probably looked something like Aborigines, but no one is sure. The people along the coast were probably Negrito types.

The Garwhalis of far northern India. These people look a lot like the Kalash and may also be a very ancient Caucasian stock, this one probably from the Caucasus itself, which is where the mysterious Kalash arose. Some of these girls could walk down a street in a European city and no one would bat an eye. They could be Spaniards, Greeks, Albanians or Italians, but I am guessing. I could not place the Garwhalis into any race.

Nagas of Northeast India. Thought to be possibly be a remnant of the original people of Northeast India. They have a lot of Asian admixture. This one looks Tibetan. Genetically, they cluster with Tibetans.

More strange Naga people. The Naga have been fighting for a separate state for a long time now called Nagaland, and I support that struggle 100%. India has no right to any of NE India. India, go away.

The Indian proto-Caucasians seem to have bred in somewhat with Australoid types in India, but this is not at all clear except in the case of Tamils, who share skull affinities with Australoids. The general theory is that Indian skulls look like Aborigines from 8,000-40,000 years ago. Up until 5,000 years ago, Indians are quite muscular (robust), but then they become more gracile.

There are skulls going back 35,000 years in Sri Lanka, and more in Uttar Pradesh going back 45,000 years. According to one theory, Australia may have been settled from India. Tamil skulls do look Australoid, and resemble Papuans, Andamans, Senoi and Semang. There are stone tools in Sri Lanka dating back 22,000 years that are similar to the tools in Australia and Indonesia.

It is thought that these tools in the latter two countries came from India. The Veddas are the original peoples of Sri Lanka and predate the Tamils and Sinhalese, both of whom came about 2,000 years ago. However, in contrast to the India to Aborigine Theory, Vedda skulls do not currently cluster with Aborigine skulls, nor do Andaman Islander skulls (Bulbek)

Do look at many of the photos of Indians on this page who may be related to the original Australoids, possibly Negritos, of India.

A Yanadi boy peddling a canoe by the shore of the Indian Ocean in India. Some say Yanadis are the remains of the original Australoid inhabitants of India. The Yanadi live in coastal SE India.

An odd looking Nord Indid Banjara – Lambadi – Gypsy speaking a North Indian dialect This woman is from Karnatiman, which is somewhere in India. Maybe the ancient proto-Caucasians of 20,000 years ago in India looked like this.

I do not think we see much left genetically of the original Indian Australoids.

Yanadi boys in India. As you can see, some look a lot like Aborigines. Fascinating.

A Yanadi girl from India. This photo was taken from a Black nationalist site where they were screaming about how these people are ancient Blacks. Party all you want over your fantasy. She is more Aborigine than anything else, if you look very closely. For the Black appearance, more convergence. Lots of folks of various races look Black, or Negroid. So what. Doesn't prove relation.

Black or Negroid appearance, like Caucasoid phenotype or appearance, is probably just another endpoint for recent human facial evolution. Many races may end up either Negroid or Caucasoid appearing on a micro level.

The ancient Australoids of India now genetically and even (except in the case of the Tamils) anthropologically look like the neighboring Caucasian groups; we may be able to see older traces, but probably just that – traces. See these photos for those traces.

Super-commenter Joe Stickler calls these folks Indo-Melanids and calls them are proto-morphers (sort of anthropological shape-shifters). He notes that they are strongly stabilized and that they are certainly not Australoids.

A Gond boy from the Gond scheduled tribe in India. More aborigine appearance. The Gonds are thought to be the remains of the original Australoids of India. The Gonds are members of the South Indian Race along with the Munda, the Bhil, the Marathi, the Rajbanshi, the Oraon, the Parji, the Kolami-Naiki, the Chenchu-Reddi, the Konda, the Kolya, the West Bengal Brahmins and the Parsi. Gonds live in Central India.Joe Stickler* describes this boy as intermediate between Indo Melanid and Veddoid. He is actually fairly standardized. Note the Asiatic eyes.

A Vedda man from India. The Veddoids are thought to be one of the endpoints of Negrito evolution, in this case the remains of the original Indians. Veddoid Tamils do resemble Negritos, Papuans, the Senoi, the Semang and the Andaman Islanders and others in skulls. However, Vedda skulls do not resemble Aborigine skulls.

I swear I know a Chicano guy who looks a lot like this.

A Mardia Gond male from India. He could well be a descendant of an original Indian Negrito group. Note the very primitive hunter-gatherer lifestyle. The Mardia reside in Central India, south of the Gonds.

Indians have been evolving in situ, pretty much, without a lot of outside inputs, for about 17,000 years.

An Australoid looking man, or possibly a very early ancient Caucasian from India. Very interesting type.

The people of India are pretty closely related to each other, and form a compact and fairly unified group.

Che Guevara himself or any hippie from the 1960's in the US, right in India. Interesting phenotype.

The Indian proto-Caucasians probably came from the Middle East to India about 20,000 years ago.

A very modern Caucasian looking woman from Rajasthan in the West of India. Going West, Indians get more modern Caucasian-looking. The ring must mean marriage.

Originally, the Indian proto-Caucasians may have looked like Arabs, but this is not known.

A very beautiful Indian woman. This woman could easily be an Italian, if you ask me. A very interesting looking phenotype. She looks hot. Commenter Joe Stickler describes her as a North Indid – Graci-Indid type.

There were Australoid types present in the Indian subcontinent when these new Caucasian people came to India 20,000 years BP, and they looked like Australian Aborigines.

A Santal man from another scheduled tribe in India. The Santal are also thought to be a remnant of the original people of India. The Santal live in NE India, north of Bangladesh near Assam.

Another odd looking tribal woman, this one from Goa. The ring through the nose thing must be a sign of being a married woman. Once again, I look and think, ancient Caucasian, but who knows. There is somewhat of an Amerindian appearance, but this is more synchronicity. This is another Nord Indid Banjara – Lambadi – Gypsy speaking a North Indian dialect.

The Indian Australoids were bred out or genetically swamped by the Caucasians from the Middle East and they have now just merged into Indian Caucasians.

Oraon women in Orissa. Another scheduled tribe thought related to the original Indians. Note the Negroid or possibly Negrito appearance. The Oraon are members of the South Indian Race described above. The Oraon live in NE India, west of Bangladesh near the state of West Bengal.

Very happy Irular kids in India. Once again, I think I am seeing some kids that look like Aborigines in this photo. Another possible remnant of the first Indians. The Irular are members of the South Dravidian Race, along with the Sinhalese, the Lambada, the Izhava, the Kurumba, the Nayar, the Toda, the Kota, the Malayaraya and the Tamils. This race, along with the South Indian Race, are probably the remains of the earliest Indians.

The Irulars live in the far south of India, southwest of the Yanadi.

More Irulars of far southern India. The Irulars are a scheduled tribe and hence are subject to affirmative action measures, which are quite controversial in India. They are very dark-skinned, as you can see.

A Malid Panyer woman from India. Blacks love to claim these folk, but really the connection is probably to the Aborigines of Australia. Big difference. Or she could well be the remains of the Indian Negritos. In fact, early racial scholars Eickstedt put them and the Gonds in with the Negritos of the Andaman Islands. The Malids live in far southwestern India, near the state of Karnataka and west of the Irular. Joe Stickler* describes Malids as a mostly unspecialized and primitive Veddoid type.

A very primitive-looking Kanikar man with a loincloth and a bow and arrow. Note the woolly hair typical of Veddoids. The face seems to have an Australoid appearance also. Early racial scholars classed these people as Negrito types. Probably among the remains of the first Indians. The Kanikar reside at the very southern tip of India. Joe Stickler* describes Kanikars as a mostly unspecialized and primitive Veddoid type.

A Panya Gond woman, probably one of the remains of the first humans to populate India. Note the woolly hair and Negrito appearance. Gonds reside in central India. Joe Stickler* describes Panyas as a mostly unspecialized and primitive Veddoid type.

Indians are also one of the most diverse Caucasian groups, as they tend to ride on the edge between Asians and Whites all the way through, from Punjabi in the north to Tamil in the South.

A Chenchu woman in India, another possible remnant of the ancient Indians. They are also in the South Indian Race. The Chenchu reside in Southern India, mostly north and west of the Yanadi. Joe Stickler* describes this woman as a strongly stabilized Indo-Melanid type with some Veddoid influence.

Chenchu kids, from a scheduled tribes in South India. Scheduled tribes are completely outside of the caste system, whatever that means.

A beautiful North Indian girl. As you can see, folks in the North can also be quite dark. India is a mysterious continent.


Related posts on India centric evolution of Man and the genetic analyses disproving Aryan Invasion theory are given here:



Robert Lindsay said...

Hi, my argument is that Indians have been evolving more or less in situ with few outside inputs for the last 17,000 years. This is the opposite of what you interpreted my article to mean. You misinterpreted my piece.

Jayasree Saranathan said...

Thanks for writing.
But the paragraphs in the beginning of the essay reveal a different intention which further gets uncoiled as the writing goes. The difference is that invasion theory is pushed back to before 17,000 years ago! The essay treats Irulars and aborigines as the original Indians and other types as evolving due to nexuses with outside, Middle east etc.

This is unacceptable because the Indian population is indigenous with all these variants evolving in a single pen very long ago. This will be understood only if gothra origins are understood.
The Hindu Thought on Manvnathra, puranas and Tamil sources on civilization even as early as 10,000 years ago in the vast stretches of India connected to Africa and Australia, that is now submerged in Indian ocean, hold the key for the evolution of present variants from a single landmass - the remaining part of which is now called India.

Robert Lindsay said...

Indeed, the proto-South Indians came around 17,000 years ago and prior. They came from the Middle East. They may have resembled Arabid types. Indeed, the Irulars, Pandits, etc. are the aboriginal Indians. They were there before these other people came 17,000 years ago.

There is no way that the Tamil sources could possibly go back 10,000 years.

Before 17,000 years ago, the people in India looked something like Aborigines. Veddoids, Irulars, Gonds, etc.

In fact, one of the main factions of Aborigine came from India 10-15,000 years ago.

Jayasree Saranathan said...

I dont know why it is difficult to accept that even South Indian Tamils belonged to this country?!
One has to delve into Indian literary (both sankrit and Tamil) past to understand how the Tamils were 'rooted' here and originated in the south-extended land of the present day India.

It is easy to say who resembled whom. What is the basis to say who among them influenced whom? Who pre-dated whom comes from the information on those whose roots can be traced deep into the past.

The present southern coastline of India came into existence 5000 years ago. Prior to that, the land that stretched up to Australia and Africa suffered 2 submergence. There is literary evidence in Tamil to this. The Puranic narration also is that the present mankind evolved south of equator that was a larger part of present day India. This place is popularly known as Lemuria.

Tamil literary past goes back up to 10,000 years ago. All these issues have been written in this blog with textual evidence.

Indian past must be understood fully before coming to any conclusion of its people, their unitariness in spite of diversities.

Without an understanding of Hindu texts, of continuing Vedic way of life of Indians (which non-Indian writers prefer to call as influence of Aryan invasion), of the very deep rooted past of the Tamils known from literary evidences, of the Manvanthra cycles of Division of Time etc, no explanation such as given by yourself and others can stand for long.

I suggest a reading of the vast information written by Stephen Knapp at and the articles on History section in

Unknown said...

When talking about the movement of people, there has been movement both in and out of India and appearances cannot be a criterion to arrive at conclusions. For example, there is sufficient proof that the Romani people (Gypsies) of Europe migrated from India to Europe as late as 100 years before. But they look more White or Caucasian than any other people of India (Charlie Chaplin was a Romani).

Jayasree Saranathan said...

Movement of people in and out of India had always happened. But that can not be held as a cause for origin of mankind of diverse variety in a place. There are many posts in this blog about Roma connection,the first migration of (exile) of 3 types of people mentioned in Valmiki Ramayana and many more. I suggest a reading of all of them.

Unknown said...

I am sorry, I meant 1000 years before, not 100 years before. It was a typo.

Oracle said...

Thanks for your writing and illustration of Indian peoples. However, I am baffled at how you claim some very dark skinned Indians as causcasian. Forgive me if I'm ignorant, but I thought causasian meant 'white' people from Europe that cannot be mistaken for Middle Eastern, Indian and Asian. Furthermore, I thought Middle Easterners whose region became Middle East after WWII were north eastern Africans. In particularly, the Saudis, they don't look 'white' to me, sorry.

Robert Lindsay said...

Hello Oracle. The Arabs and North Africans are for the most part Caucasoids on a variety of metrics. Skulls is one, and the other is genes. However, Berbers on some charts do go barely into the Black quadrant. So genetically, Berbers are Black on some charts. However, most Berbers look Caucasian.

Most Arabs also appear Caucasian, including Saudis. Some Arabs and especially N Africans are so Black that they have to go into Black.

The peoples of India, outside of the NE, genetically, are all Caucasians. That's all there is to it. On most charts, they are with Caucasians. True, they are not White, but Caucasian does not = White. Some Caucasians are quite dark.

However, the Veddoid and Tamil types of the South are not Caucasoid in phenotype (skulls). Looking at their skulls, they are Australoids, not Caucasoids. Australoids includes Aborigines, Papuans, Melanesians, etc.

Jayasree Saranathan said...

We have to take a fresh look at this issue.

One will be surprised to know that Caucasus was known as Kegaya in olden times which was the homeland of Kaikeyi, one of the step mothers of Rama. The region to the North of Himalayas (Russia) was known as Uttar Kuru in those days and the most prosperous and the best of living was in this region. Sages like Yajnavalkya and Agasthya originated here according to Hindu Thought. Lopamudra, the wife of Agasthya belonged to this region and I heard the name Lopamudrova is common in Russia.

Even today Russia follows the Vedic way of identifying the location from Bigger to smaller unit - similar to the Sankalpa done in any Hindu ritual tracing the time and location from Kalpa onwards. To explain this, we write our address starting form the local unit, the door number, street name, then the city and then the name of the country. But Vedic way is to trace from the Macro to the micro level - from the Universe / the Mega time to the local level. I heard that the Rusaians still follow this method of noting their address from the macro to micro - starting from the country in steps until the specific location of the person. This practice is the remnant of the Vedic practice which was in vogue everywhere on the earth before the advent of abrahamic religions. So it is not surprising to find any clue on the origins pointing to India of today.

Bharath was part of Jambhu dweepa, a huge landmass stretching from Middle East to the borders of China and it was far stretched to the South close to Australia and Africa. The genetic studies show the existence of different groups that had however showed similarities in origin, in this part of the world.

According to Hindu Thought, this is explained as Gothra- rishis or sages with distinct traits becoming progenitors of different groups of human beings. According to this, India or Bharat of olden days was like a cow-pen (Gothra means just that) where different varieties of humans evolved and spread out later.

Kindly read my post in this link to know the distribution of mankind 5000 years ago as explained in Mahabharata.

RJ said...

Let the white kids believe in the aryan invasion theory. They have nothing left to believe in now that santa claus is known to be an imposter!