The results of IIT-JEE 2008 are out and
it has been proved once again (as in earlier years)
that there is no need for OBC reservation in IITs.
Just browse this link to see the results.
http://jee.iitr.ernet.in/
For instance for the registration no: 6096400,
the AIR (All India Rank) is 2902.
The OBC rank is 367.
It is obvious that 366 OBCs have qualified on their own mettle in the first 2901 places of the whooping 3.2 lakh students who had taken up this exam.
It is reasonable to assume that more than 10% of all those selected in the merit list of 6000 students had been OBCs.
If we look at performance of SC / STs, again it is impressive only.
In the first 3000 ranks, nearly 30 are of this category.
It must also be borne in mind that all these toppers were trained in premier coaching centres that charge not less than Rs.1.5 lakhs!
Are these students backward?
Do they need any special treatment by way of reservation?
On the contrary, they are getting special treatment for the caste certificates they hold,
by by-passing other rankers to enter the prime branches such as ECE, CSE etc which will be restricted to the first 500 rankers.
It means a sea-some difference in knowledge and aptitude between those who originally qualify for the first 500 ranks and those who jump over others by OBC treatment.
Anyways, adequate representation of OBCs and SCs in the common merit list is by no means a mean achievement and it is ample proof that there is no need for reservation in IITs.
26 comments:
Madam,
What is the percentage of OBC in India
Is it just 12 % or more than 12 %
If you answer the second question, you will understand that OBC Reservations are of course needed
--
Dear Bruno,
Last year it was 14 %. This year by browsing the results, it is seen that it is not going to be less than that.
It shows that there is a considerable percentage of OBCs - who are definitely not backward, socially or economically - are capable of competing on their own.
It is their mind power and afford ability (to pay a minimum of Rs 1.5 lakhs to pay for coaching)that get them a seat in the IIT. Reservation in this scenario only gives them an advantage / edge over others in garnering the highly sought-after branches.
Do you want reservation for OBC for this purpose?
Look at the other side - nearly half of India which can not afford a good schooling for their kids.
This area is a caste-less area - that is, cutting across caste barriers there are innumerable families which can not send their children to schools of some standard.
As an astrological counselor giving advice to the needy, for free of cost, I am coming across scores of such people. They are from different castes. Each one of them presents a pathetic story of deprivation, loss and misery. Reservation has absolutely not helped them in any way. Reservation works for those who can afford even without it. Reservation in IITs or even in other colleges mean nothing to them. They first need to send their children to good schools.
If one of the parents is not a graduate, they can not put the ward in a good school. If the parents can not afford a considerable money as some 'fund' they can not put their wards in a good school.
The politicians may react to this by blaming the schools.
Instead, why not the government create such schools , spend its resources that it is now spending on IITs on developing those schools, bring in good teachers by paying them well and make the students compete on par with others without having to take up private tuitions?
And another hitch is also there.
Not every one is capable of doing professional course.
Many are needed to be given training in some job-oriented / vocational course in tune with their capabilities, before they complete their senior secondary and must be absorbed in respective fields for employment.
That is the need of the current times.
Where did you get this sea-some difference in aptitudes between uncategorized and the OBCs ? If it is so, better check with the system which can make this happen in a competitive exam taken by lakhs of pupil.
I wrote >>>>>
It means a sea-some difference in knowledge and aptitude between those who originally qualify for the first 500 ranks and those who jump over others by OBC treatment.<<<<<<<<
The difference is of course there between the top 500 rankers (who score more than 350) and all those who are down the line in the list.The lower rung of the selected merit list happens to score only half of this score.
Not everyone can crack the JEE!
Go through the question papers, check the scores and test the aptitude of toppers - they can be from any caste.
Backwardness in terms of caste has no relevance with these students who make it to the rank list.
But this year's surge in JEE takers is more due to the persuasion of parents who were attracted by OBC reservation.
Hope you were present in atleast one of the exam centers to see and know by yourself the talks among students and parents.
http://kaapiwrite.wordpress.com/2008/05/31/i-am-sorry-the-seats-reserved/
//It shows that there is a considerable percentage of OBCs - who are definitely not backward, socially or economically - are capable of competing on their own.//
And they will be in the Creamy Layer.
The 27 % of Quota is for the down trodden
--
Any way, in a society where OBC constitute more than 50%, 12 % (or 14 %) is of course a very minute number.
Once 50 % of General Seats are filled by OBCs, the quota can be withdrawn, not at 12 %
//Do you want reservation for OBC for this purpose?//
No..
The OBC Reservation is ONLY FOR THOSE whose total annual family income is less than 2.5 lakhs
That is about 20,000 per month.
This is NOT a reservation for rich
Bruno, if you agree as you say in the above comment, all the other comments of yours (to be published below) and other arguments for OBC reservation in IITs will have no relevance. Reservation on the basis of caste will have no relevance in IITs.
It is because no one with less than 2.5 lakhs PA can afford a tution for 1.5 lakhs to prepare for JEE. The income certificates and other creamy layer requisites will be examined at the time of counseling. I am sure this year no seat allotment (may be very negligible) can take place on OBC quota.In the JEE application form itself, the income column (upto 3 lakh per annum)needs to be filled and all had entered their income level. This happened before SC order came. No one can produce a false certificate now (at the time of counseling) when they had already indicated in the application form.
Bruno, I wish you are in some way related to IIT and its preparation. If so, you wont be arguing for a case which can not be supported.
புருனோ Bruno said...
//Reservation has absolutely not helped them in any way. //
NO. You are wrong. You have seen only one part of the society. If you come out in open, you can understand how reservation has helped other
//Reservation works for those who can afford even without it. Reservation in IITs or even in other colleges mean nothing to them. They first need to send their children to good schools.//
What about people who are able to send children to good school, but cannot provide the "support"
//If one of the parents is not a graduate, they can not put the ward in a good school. If the parents can not afford a considerable money as some 'fund' they can not put their wards in a good school.//
Reservation is for these kind of people
June 5, 2008 8:37 AM
***********************
Jayasree says >>>>>>>>>>>>
You are coming to what I have been saying.
The poor have not been helped by OBC reservation in IITs or IIMs.
The poor need better support at the school level itself.
(Are you noticing Bruno, that the question is now narrowing down economic status and not about caste? If so, know that the root cause of problem is money and not caste .
If someone can not get good education, the cause is not caste- it is un-affordability in terms of money.
That caste is not a cause is proved time and again by the fact that it is an all-caste –mix in General category in all professional education institutes in Tamil nadu.
To give you another instance, it is 25: 500 (forward : general) in the general category in medical merit list in Tamil nadu for the past many years.
That is, in the general list of nearly 500 toppers, only 20 to 25 are forward class students. All others belong to BC, MBC or SC . This happens year after year.
This information was brought even as early as year 2000, but was suppressed. You can check by yourself by looking at the board displayed at Direactorate of medical education at Kilpauk
The caste discrimination which is of course there in places like Uttha puram can not be solved by this reservation. The strategy has to be different there.)
Read my other posts in my blog.
http://jayasreesaranathan.blogspot.com/2008/06/schools-need-attention-not-iits_03.html
http://jayasreesaranathan.blogspot.com/2008/06/sorry-state-of-education.html
புருனோ Bruno said...>>>>>>>>>
//Backwardness in terms of caste has no relevance with these students who make it to the rank list.//
If some one is poor, (that is he has been deprived of money) give him money (scholarship)
If some one is deprived of education, give him education
--
For 2000 years, education was given and denied (In INDIA) not on the basis of money, but on the basis of caste.
To correct this a caste based reservation only will help<<<<<<<<<
***************
jayasree says,
A planted myth..
Bruno, just look back into past to know when the current education was started.
What you say as 2000 years is a planted myth.
Do you say schools were there for 2000 years and BCs were denied entry into them?
Please history to know the truth.
Education existed as Vedic education in this country for not just 2000 years but for many millennia before that.
That education was not meant for material gains.
It was a spiritual education at Gurukulas.
Anyone could have access to them.
Since that education was on Vedas and God,
any student ready to undergo Upanayanam
(to see god from nearby – is the meaning and import of this)
was taken into these Gurukulams.
There was absolutely no caste bar to get this education.
Satya kama jabali was the son of Jabali (a female)
who could not say to whom he was born as she had relationship with many.
But he said this truth(satyam) to his master
when he wanted education in these schools.
The master accepted him because he told the truth
and anointed him as “satya kama Jabali” – “the son of Jabali who stands by truth”
Do you know the place this satyakama Jabali enjoys?
His views have been incorporated in Chandogya upanishad
His views on family customs, particularly monogamy
has been accepted by all.
The rule of monogamy as it is practiced in Hinduism
has been laid down by this Satyakama Jabali only.
This was the scenario until when the British came to India.
Bruno,
The education what you think and say now was introduced by the British only with in the last 200 years.
With the British calling the shots, do you think the forward castes could appropriate all benefits for themselves?
Read the following post from my blog.
http://jayasreesaranathan.blogspot.com/2008/04/stop-this-fraud-against-brahmins.html
**********************************
Bruno wrote >>>>>>>>>>>
--
By the way
Can I ask you a question
Why don't you oppose the following quotas
1. Ex Service man
2. Institute
They also affect merit
There are children of Army officers who get into general category
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Jayasree says,
Ask the politicians who brought these quotas.
But one thing, the numbers are less and the marks they have scored are high
if you look at the lists.
There was once reservation for Srilankan nationals and NRIs in TN.
Thankfully they are not found mentioned nowadays in the Brochure.
Bruno said >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
--
Why are you harping this "merit" argument ONLY FOR CASTE BASED Quotas and not for other quotas
--<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Jayasree says,
I am sorry to hear you make a comment as to de-merit merit.
I don’t support any quota regime. It is not good for nation building.
When merit is by-passed, nation suffers though individuals may gain.
Even if we agree with your notion that OBCs must occupy 50% of the seats in IIT,
that comes to 2500 persons only. What about the ½ a billion OBCs ?
Don’t you think we need a better strategy to make them come up?
Reservation or apportioning college seats does not remove social backwardness as
such but only benefits those who don’t suffer in the name of social backwardness.
Even the founding fathers did not recommend it for more than 10 years.
The issue must be addressed at the root cause level,
in this case at the primary school level itself,
Bruno says>>>>
Think and YOU YOURSELF WILL Understand that your inner bias :) :) :)
--
And that is why we need caste based quotas (the same reason why you did not care
to blog about the other quotas, but only this quota :) :) :)
Sorry if the comment has been harsh. Truth is always bitter
உண்மை சுடும்
June 5, 2008 8:44 AM <<<<
***************
Jayasree says,
Read the following blog
http://kaapiwrite.wordpress.com/2008/05/31/i-am-sorry-the-seats-reserved/
I leave it to the judgment of readers to see who has inner bias.
My blog is primarily on sanathana dharma.
Sanathana dharma salutes
Truth ( a sanathanist like me bow only to Truth)
and merit,
abhors discrimination,
has no bias against any - on any basis such as caste, colour, language, riches etc.
My write-ups so far have been
against reservation to IITs in particular,
as I consider it not to be serving the purpose it is intended for.
புருனோ Bruno said...
//It shows that there is a considerable percentage of OBCs - who are definitely not backward, socially or economically - are capable of competing on their own.//
And they will be in the Creamy Layer.
The 27 % of Quota is for the down trodden
**********
jayasree says >>
Exactly.
Reservation IITs will help only creamy layers. That is why it is not needed.
***************
Bruno said>>
--
Any way, in a society where OBC constitute more than 50%, 12 % (or 14 %) is of course a very minute number.
Once 50 % of General Seats are filled by OBCs, the quota can be withdrawn, not at 12 %
*************
jayasree says >>>>
Here I request all reservation zealots to think that to attain 50 % share in IITs, the beginning must be made at school level. Give equal chance to everyone to have access to good schooling so that they can become competent enough when they aim for IITs.
Any IIT entrant today must have had a good schooling and a comfortable home surrounding that would have helped him prepare for nearly 4 years for JEE. All these people are from creamy layer only.
Create such a situation for non-creamy layer ones too.
Dear Madam,
I am really surprised as to how you are not even aware of the basic facts
BC and OBC are different
If some one gets a OBC Certificate, it means that HIS INCOME is less than the prescribed amount
Not as what you say
//All these people are from creamy layer only.//
I would request you to know the basic facts before commenting on such topics
Almost all those who argue against reservation do out of their own whims and fancies without even knowing the basic facts
1. Do you know who Eklavya is
2. Why are YOU opposing ONLY CASTE BASED Quotas and Not Other quotas like
Exserviceman quotas, Institute Quotas etc
Please answer these questions
And then,
I have already torn into pieces the points you have put forth. So I think I need not type them again. Please read my blog
http://bruno.penandscale.com/search/label/Reservation
And Please get yourself clarified regarding what is OBC and what is BC
Why are almost all the Anti reservation bloggers writing wrong things
Is that because you do not have truth on your side
--
If you still think you have some valid points, please tell and I am ready to discuss
//It is because no one with less than 2.5 lakhs PA can afford a tution for 1.5 lakhs to prepare for JEE//
What if some one has prepared WITHOUT tuition..
--
//Bruno, I wish you are in some way related to IIT and its preparation. If so, you wont be arguing for a case which can not be supported.//
Cannot be supported... It has been already won in the court....
:) :) :)
--
By the way, Your Knowledge about OBC is totally wrong
I am from Backward Community, but I cannot compete in OBC in IIT. Because my family income is more than the prescribed amount I WILL NOT BE EVEN ISSUED the OBC Certificate
--
//The income certificates and other creamy layer requisites will be examined at the time of counseling. //
I believe that the Tahsildhar (or other competent authorities) very it before giving the certificate.
//I am sure this year no seat allotment (may be very negligible) can take place on OBC quota.//
Wishful thinking.
If some one has OBC Certificate, he gets admitted in OBC Quota.
If some one has income more than the prescribed amount, he can apply in general quota only
Please check it yourself.
//The poor have not been helped by OBC reservation in IITs or IIMs.
The poor need better support at the school level itself.//
The Poor Need better support at the school level
+
reservation at the college level
--
No one denies the school part
//To give you another instance, it is 25: 500 (forward : general) in the general category in medical merit list in Tamil nadu for the past many years.//
Now you are coming to the point.. Excellent
But in 1925
The ratio was
495:500
Can you deny this
How did this change
Because Tamil Nadu introduced reservations way back meritorious people from other caste are able to compete
//That is, in the general list of nearly 500 toppers, only 20 to 25 are forward class students. All others belong to BC, MBC or SC . //
You are NOT aware of the latest data :) :) :)
//This happens year after year.
This information was brought even as early as year 2000, but was suppressed. You can check by yourself by looking at the board displayed at Direactorate of medical education at Kilpauk//
Never supressed. Please see my Tamil Blog
http://payanangal.blogspot.com/2008/04/merit-list-of-tamil-nadu-bc-mbc.html
http://payanangal.blogspot.com/2008/04/merit-list-of-tamil-nadu-bc-mbc.html
More info at this page also
http://payanangal.blogspot.com/2008/04/merit-list-of-tamil-nadu-bc-mbc.html
This shows the
Hollowness of your argument
Free education for poor is followed every where. But BC / MBC and SC are able to come up only in Tamil Nadu
This is because of Reservation
So
To uplift the masses
you need
1. Primary Education
2. Reservation
--
No one denies schools need attention
But your point that IIT do not need attention is very hollow
//What you say as 2000 years is a planted myth.
Do you say schools were there for 2000 years and BCs were denied entry into them?
Please history to know the truth.
//
Madam,
I cannot believe that you are so ignorant (of course most of the anti reservation people are ignorant only. if enlightened, they will support the truth :):)
Who is eklayya - ஏகலைவா
Common...
That ONLY forward castes were educated is a common truth and no one will deny that
--
//There was absolutely no caste bar to get this education.//
BIG LIE
//With the British calling the shots, do you think the forward castes could appropriate all benefits for themselves?//
If you compare Medical Admission in 1925 in Tamil Nadu and today in Tamil Nadu
and
Medical Admission in 1925 in AIIMS and today in AIIMS
you yourself will know the truth
--
haven't you read about our former president's story in his college days
//Ask the politicians who brought these quotas. //
Madam, Politicians only bought this Caste Based Quota also. They are not opposing both
But why you are opposing ONLY Caste based quotas
//But one thing, the numbers are less and the marks they have scored are high if you look at the lists.//
Again you showcase your ignorance
The marks in Institute Quota is less than the marks of caste based quota
and caste based quota - 18 %
Institute Quota - 33%
Please see http://bruno.penandscale.com/2006/05/truth-about-merit-in-aiims.html
And you should be ashamed...
If you are really concered about merit, you should have opposed these quotas...
//that comes to 2500 persons only. What about the ½ a billion OBCs ?//
Now this is very interesting
All the 1/2 billion OBCs do not appear for IIT 2009.
Only a few appear
And it is enough if the most meritorious among them are chosen.
--
Even after clearing explaining that the number of seats for Forward Castes are not going to be reduced, why are you against Reservations in IIT
Is that because you do not want people from other castes to come up ???
If the seats of FC were to be given to BC, it is different
But now,this year it is only 9 % and it is new seats
Why is the big cry when NOT EVEN A SINGLE Seat is reduced for FC
It is because of the inner bias and nothing else
//Reservation or apportioning college seats does not remove social backwardness as
such but only benefits those who don’t suffer in the name of social backwardness.//
In 1950s in medical colleges, students of forward communities were given medals in Stage.
Students from other communities, even after getting first mark, were given medals only in the Class Room
:( :(
Now it is not the case (in tamil Nadu)
This social change is only because of reservations
//I consider it not to be serving the purpose it is intended for.//
That is YOUR "Opinion"
Every one can have their opinion. Your opinion and my opinion will be different and that is perfectly normal
But if you take the case of the Medical Admissions, (which you yourself quoted), reservations in medical colleges and engineering colleges have definitely brought a social change in Tamil Nadu
--
Why Uttapuram is in news is because it is one of the few places in Tamil Nadu where it happens.
Compare it with Northern states where Dalits are burned alive for skiing a DEAD Cow and such things rarely get reported because it is a norm over there
--
This itself should tell you the benefits of reservation
Madam,
If you oppose Reservations because "reservations are against my community" i respect your views and will not argue against that
But don't give false reasons like "reservation in IIT is useless", "merit is affected" etc, which are baseless and wrong -> I have already written about each and every stupid argument put forward by the anti reservation guys in my blog
http://bruno.penandscale.com/search/label/Caste
http://bruno.penandscale.com/search/label/Reservation
The ONLY Argument from your side for which I have no answer is "We oppose reservations because we get lesser seats"
Any other argument and I am ready to tear those points into pieces
And
Please know the difference between
BC and OBC :) :) :)
--
Bruno,
I can see that you have written what you wanted to write rather than to write in reply to what I wrote. In the process you have written views which I have not written and nor even implied and you had chosen to reply to those views of yours.
I am publishing all your comments for the readers to see for themselves.
Every issue including Ekalavya about whom you have written shows how much you have known about Ekalavya and other such issues.
A simple browse through my blog and the one in the link section could have told you the truth of these issues.
Moreover I find you shifting issues every time you seem to be cornered.
Go ahead with your views but I wish someday you will come to see how to view things in perspective.
In the meantime, please don’t de-mean BCs or OBCs or whomever saying that they lack in prowess and intellect and that they can grow only with reservation.
Statistics show everyone irrespective of caste is equally capable.
The issue is deemed closed if same comments are repeated.
Jakob De Roover -
Recently, the European Parliament hosted a meeting on "caste
discrimination in South Asia". At the meeting, participants stated
that "India is being ruled by castes not by laws" and that they
demanded justice, because there "is one incredible India and one
untouchable India". The EU was urged to come out with a policy
statement on the subject. One member of parliament, referring to the
caste system, said that "this barbarism has to end".
This is not the first time. The US also has networks and
lobbies working for the plight of the downtrodden in India. However,
before the EU or the US decide to publish policy statements on caste
discrimination in India, they would do well to reflect on some simple
facts.
First, the dominant conception of the caste system has emerged from
the accounts by Christian missionaries, travelers and colonial
administrators. Rather than being neutral, these accounts were shaped
by a Christian framework. That is, the religion of the western
visitors to India had informed them beforehand that they would find
false religion and devil worship there, and that false religion
always manifested itself in social evils. Especially the Protestants
rebuked the "evil priests" of Hinduism for imposing the laws of caste
in the name of religion. They told the Indians that conversion to
Protestantism was a conversion to equality. Thus, Indian souls were
to be saved from damnation and caste discrimination.
Second, this Christian account of "the Hindu religion" and its "caste
system" informed colonial policies in British India. Building on the
theological framework, scholars now wrote "scientific" treatises on
Hindu superstition and caste discrimination. The Christian mission
found its secular counterpart in the idea of the civilizing mission,
which told the West that it had to rescue the natives from the
clutches of superstition and caste. One no longer promoted religious
conversion, but the colonial educational system harped on "the
horrors of Hindu society".
Third, the colonial educational project had a deep impact on the
Indian intelligentsia. Hindu reform and anti caste movements came
into being, which reproduced the Protestant accounts of Hinduism and
caste as true descriptions of India. Their advocates did not adopt
these descriptions as passive recipients, but actively deployed them
to pursue socio-economic and political interests. Political parties
and caste associations were created to safeguard the interests of
the "lower castes". The elites of these groups united in associations
and received financial and moral support from the missionaries and
other progressive colonials.
Fourth, the "Dalit" movement of today is the product of these
colonial movements. The notion of "Dalits" makes sense only within
the colonial account of India, which had postulated the existence of
one single group of "outcastes" or "untouchables" that was supposedly
exploited by the upper castes. In reality, it concerns a variety of
caste groups, with no criteria to unite them besides the claim that
they are all "downtrodden". Indeed, many of these groups are poor and
discriminated against by other caste groups. However, their socio-
economic interests have been hijacked by some of their western-
educated elite members. In the name of the downtrodden, these elites
establish NGOs and then travel from conference to conference and
country to country in order to reveal the plight of the "Dalits" to
eager western audiences.
Fifth, when present-day westerners rebuke Indian society for
the "barbarism" of caste discrimination, they are reproducing the old
stanzas of the civilizing mission. Such a stance of superiority
perhaps worked in the context of colonialism. But today, at a time
when Indians buy some of the European industrial giants and give
financial injections to save the Hollywood film industry from
bankruptcy, it is ill-advised to continue this type of civilizational
propaganda.
In fact, such propaganda derives its plausibility from a series of
assumptions that no one would be willing to defend explicitly. It
attributes all socio-economic wrongs of the Indian society to its
structure and civilization. The implication is that there is only one
way to get rid of socio-economic wrongs here: one has to eradicate
both the social structure and the Hindu civilization. It is as though
one would blame the racism, binge-drinking, pedophilia, poverty,
homelessness and domestic violence in the contemporary West on its
age-old social and civilizational structure.
The times have changed. As westerners, we need to reflect on our deep-
rooted sense of superiority and how this informs our moralizing
discourse on human rights in other parts of the world. To appreciate
the impression we give to Indians with our statements on caste
discrimination, just imagine a possible world in which the Indian
government regularly castigates the US for its racism against African-
Americans and the disproportionate death penalties, and the EU for
the treatment of South Asians in England, Turks in Germany, women in
Romania, the Basque movement in Spain, gypsies in Italy,... Just
imagine Indian members of parliament consistently blaming the very
structure of western societies as the cause of all these wrongs.
The West needs to wake up fast. The time of colonialism is over. If
we do not change our attitudes, the irritation towards Europe and
America will grow in countries like India and China. So will the
unwillingness to collaborate with the EU and the US. In the fast-
changing world of the early twenty-first century, neither Europe nor
America can afford this.
WHEN IT COMES TO RESERVATIONS PMK, DMK AND AIADMK PREFER HINDI OVER TAMIL
Pro reservationationists ironically favour Muslims who only speak Hindi at home or Nayudus and Reddys who speak only Telugu at home. At the same time they treat Tamil-speaking Brahmins and Chettiars as foreign invaders by excluding them . They also claim to fight for the Tamil cause….by dividing Tamil society!!? PMK, DMK, ADMK etc reject creamy layer, support the cruel 2-tumbler system of Southern Tamil Nadu and now demand extended reservation. PMK leader will go Delhi, Hyderabad and Bombay to promote reservation rather than setting up Tamil learning centers in those places. This shows that Tamil Nadu policitians don’t mind loosing their self respect and prefer to worship their Hindi masters than to work for an integrated Tamil society. Incidently the PMK health minister has made Hindi compulsory for medicine, the the DMK surface transport minister has made Hindi compulsory on national roads even in Tamil Nadu.
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