Monday, June 2, 2008

Paari of Parambu hills and Paari (caste) of Kashmir – Are they same?

While going through details of Gujjar agitation (Dina malar 01-06-08),

I came across a mention of “paari” caste of Kashmir who have got ST status.

The name sounds curious to me.

There was a Paari in Tamil nadu.

Paari of parambu malai is a famous one – among the kadai ezhu vallalgal

(the last of 7 philanthropists.)

He was a VeLir like others of his clan, Vori, Began etc –

all of whom belong to the clan called VeLir.

These VeLir were not Tamils originally,

but were brought by sage Agasthya from Dwaraka after the sub-mergence.

While one group of surviviors of Dwaraka deluge left for Kashmir

(recorded in Mahabharatha),

another group left for South India under the guidance of Agasthya.

This is has been recorded by Nacchinaarkiliyar and quoted in my earlier posts.

The Velirs were of two types – one who tilled and did the farming operations

and others who engaged people in tilling and farming operations.

Some of them became ‘Aayars” – those who collected taxes (aayam or vari).

Aaya is a sanskrit word for income and is also used in Tamil.

‘Aay Andiran’ was a famous king of aayars

whose inscription says that he belonged to Yadava clan.

(I intend to write a detailed account on all these with proof –

both textual and on the basis of inscriptions,

but will resume writing them after August )

The issues to be noted are that they brought farming to Tamil nadu.

Certain groups of people who inhabited Tamil nadu until then

adopted farming from them.

The MukkulatthOr becoming Velaalar is one example.

The penetration of Dwaraka refugees is wide spread in Tamil nadu.

For instance the king VeL Evvi – who was praised in Puranaanuru and

whom poetess Ouvaiyaar was fond of,

and who also happens to the ‘paatudai-th-thlaivan’ (Lord of the songs)

for SirupaaNattru-p-padai,

belonged to the clan “Ovi”. (said so in Sirupaanaatru-p-padai)

Incidentally the sculptors who wrote the inscriptions

on the copper plates of Thirvaalangadu

(made in the 6th year of Rajendra Chola-I ‘s reign)

also were from Ovi family.

The last verse of the copper inscription mentions this as their signature.

They were born in Kancheepura –

showing that the families that came to settle down in Tamil nadu had spread

or penetrated at all places.

“(L. 518.) Four sculptors born at Kanchipura, ornaments of the race of Hovya, wrote this eulogy (prasasti) : — the high-minded Aravamurta who, though born of Krishna, was not of sullied (Krishna) conduct; his two younger brothers who bore the names Ranga and Damodara ; and (his) son, the famous Purushotama, who was the bee at the paid of the lotus feet of (god) Purushottama (i.e., Vishnu). By these four persons who were well versed in the various forms of mechanical art, who had their birth at the great (city of) Kanchipura, who were wise and who were born in the Ovi family, this edict was clearly engraved.

While those settled at regions of Karnataka and Kerala emerged

as distinct groups later (with their languages showing a mixture of Sanskrit and Tamil),

those settled in Tamil nadu merged with the local culture.

All these people constituted “dravidans” –

the term used in Raja Tarangini (6th century AD) of Kashmir

for ‘the people who left to settle or rest’

That they were not original inhabitants of Tamil nadu is also proved by the fact

that none of the 3 rulers of Tamil nadu (chera, chola and Pandya)

ever accepted them.

The only occasion these 3 rulers united was

when they wanted to destroy Paari – the Velir

King IrungO VEl of Dwara samudram near Mysore also belonged to the same clan.

From Kapilar’s song in Puranaanuru

we come to know that he belonged to the 49th generation after Drishtadhyumna.

In seeking marriage for the daughters of Paari,

Kapilar’s immediate instinct was to seek alliances in Paari’s own clan.

That was why he had approached him and another one

for the marriage of Parri’s daughters.

However they refused – which made him to settle for some Brahmin boys

of his own clan.

The similarity in the name “paari” of the ST groups of Kashmir makes me wonder

whether they belonged to the same clan as Paari Vallal of Parambu malai.

In the back drop of this,

I am curious to know whether the Paari of Kashmir share any genetic resemblance

with those in Gujarath and VEllalars of Tamil nadu.

I expect them to be of same origin.


Anonymous said...

hey i wanted to know if velir later became vellalars? the story of velir coming from north is that an allusion to vellalar migration from the north?

Jayasree Saranathan said...

The VeL migration happened from Dwaraka to Tamil lands (that included the present day Tamil nadu, Kerala and Karnataka ( not Andhra. The settlements did not go north of Vemkatam / Thirumalai- Thiruppathi).

Please refer Nachinarkiniyar's comemntary on
(1)Sutra 30, of AgatthiNAi, Tholkappiyam for the 2 divisions within VeLaLAr and those who received the title VeL.

(2)Paayiram of Tholkappiyam that tells about the migration from Dwaraka under the guidance of Agasthya soon after the deluge / submergence of Dwaraka.

(3)Sutra 32 of AgatthiNAi, Tholkappiyam giving the same information as above.

The Krishna cult along with deification of Balaram, the one with the plough who ushered in agriculture, was brought to Tamil nadu by Agasthiyar along with the migrated population.

They further spread, some of them becoming 'aai' - the ones responsible for collection of 'aaya-th-theeervi (taxes)under the Tamil kings. They later established their kingdoms - an example is Aai Andiran who is widely praised in Puranaanuru.

IrumkOveL who rejected the Paari- magair (daughters of Paari)
belonged to the 49th generation in the lineage of Dhrushtadhymna, the brother of Draupadi. This is contained in Kapila's verse in Puranaanuru.

From the 2 types of VeLs, (those who were directly engaged in agricultural operation and those who employed others in agricultural operations), agriculture spread to other communities, who later engaged themselves in full-fledged agricultural activities. Since people were known by their occupation (varna) in those times, many types of Velalars sparng up.
Many of the Velaalar types of present day Tamil nadu are such communities who switched to agricultural occupation.

One example is the mukkulatthor becoming Vellalar.

The Mukkulatthor who were earlier engaged in a symbiotic occupational network, of Agamudaiyar governing their areas, maravars in defense and and Kallars in cattle breeding, switched over to agricultural occupation.

The detailed explanation on these aspects and on how the migrated ones came to be referred to as Dravidas will be posted - perhaps from November onwards in this blog under the label 'No Aryan - Dravidian divide - It was one Aryavartha'.

Anonymous said...

So Aai Andiran was a vellalar (or a pre-cursor of it, rather)? BTW what does the name (Aai Andiran) mean?

I read this in another blog -

"The veLIr clan appears to have descended from the northern yadus of dvAraka about 49 generations before the days of kapilar, the brAhmaNa poet in tamil."

Also, if you have any information on the caste composition of the big 3 (chola, chera, pandya) royals, please post.

i appreciate your detailed reply.

Jayasree Saranathan said...

The following link to the post in my blog tells about what Tamil texts have top say about castes.

About the origin of the 3 Tamil kings

About migration from Dwaraka.

Konkans seem to be natives of the land, whom Aai Andiran drove out to the west of western ghats.
The 18 VeLir kings from Dwaraka were not accepted by Tamil kings.
They were never in good terms with them.

The VeLaLars were 2 in types, which I mentioned in the reply to your comment.

Aai Andiran must have been a tax collector (collecting aayam / tax) – we can make out from the name- originally who later became a ruler.

I suggest a reading of all the posts in the link section “No Dravidian divide”

The series will be resumed after November, as I am presently pre-occupied with other works.

Anonymous said...

MAGRAY-THE WARRIORS & MARTIALS OF KASHMIR: Magray is a Martial Kashmiri tribe of Rajput origin. Magray sprung from Kashtri - un-Nassal Rajput. Kashtri-un-Nassal Rajput are one of the four classes of Hindus. Kashtri were people of ruling class having responsibility for the defence of the state. Ladhay Magray was the forefather of Magray tribe. Magres accepted Islam at the hand of Syed Ali Hamdani in thirteenth Century. The first person who entered in Kashmir and settled their belonged to Magray tribe thus making Magray tribe, the founders of Kashmir. Magray tribe ruled over Kashmir for seven hundred years. They invited Mughals to enter Kashmir in order to end disturbances in the valley. However, subsequently Mughals were defeated and pushed back by the Magray tribe. Magray tribe is settled all over the world with majority in Kashmir Valley. In spite of being SARDARS of the time, people of Magray tribe felt proud to be called as MAGRAY. VILLAGES & TOWNS IN KASHMIR NAMED MAGRAY: 1. Magray Village District Bagh 2. Magray City Kuttan, Neelum valley, Muzaffarabad 3. Magray Hills Kanchikot, Rawalakot 4. Magray Abad, Barmang Rawalakot 5. Magray Gali Lipa Valley, Muzaffarabad 6. Magray Abad Attmaqam, Kel road,Neelum Valley 7. Magray Village Motarin, khaigala, Rawalakot 8. Kharl Magrayan District Bagh 9 Sardari Magrayan Neelum Valley Muzaffarabad 10. Magray village marchkot Abbaspur 11. Bandian Magray Abbaspur. MEANINGS OF MAGRAY: Magray is an ancient word, Magray means,"TheMartials", "The Warriors", "Military and war like people". Magray is also spelled as Magrey, Magre and Magri, but the correct spelling is Magray. The plural of Magray is Magres. BOOKS ON MAGRAY TRIBE: All the historical books on Kashmir contain material on Magray tribe and their role in the history of Kashmir. Few of the historical Books are mentioned here for reference. 1. Magray in the Eyes of History By Sajid Latif Magray. 2. Magray A Warrior Kashmiri Tribe By Capt Ghulam Hussain Magray 3. Valley of Kashmir by Sir Walter Lirance. 4. Imperial Gazettier of India By Govt of India. 5. Tribes and Castes of Kashmir By Muhammad Din Folk. 6. Castes and Tribes of Poonch by Muhammad Din Folk. 7. History of Kasmir By Khawaja Azamey. 8. History of Kashmir By Muhammad Hassan. 9. History Kabeer Kashmir by Haji M.Mohiudin. 10. Raj Tarangi By Pandit Kahlan. 11. Tareekh-e-Kashmir by Professor Nazir Ahmed Tashna. 12. Kashmir in the Era of Muslim empires By Ghulam Hassan Khoyami. 13. Tareekh-e- Malkan By Dr Sadiq Malik. 14. Jalwa-e-Kashmir By Dr Sabir Afaqi 15. Baharistan-e-Shahi A Chronocle Mediaeval of Kashmir. 16. Magray - The Martials and Warriors of Kashmir by Sajiad Latif Magray. 17. Tareekh-e-Kashmir,Islami By Dr Sabir Afaqi. 18. Tareekh-e-Azmi By M.Azam. 19. Tribal geography of India Jamu and Kashmir By M. Bashir Magray. 20. A New History of India and Pakistan By Quyyam Abdul. MAGRAY VILLAGES/TOWNS: 1. MAGRAY VILLAGE MOTARIN, RAWALKOT : This is a village comprising of about 400 houses, exclusively of the Magray Tribe. Road leading from Rawalkot to Tatrinote crossing point passes from this village. Few personalities of the village are: - a. Muhammad Din Magray. b. Subedar Muhammad Latif Magray. c. Sajjad Latif Magray. d. Rasheed Magray. e. Yaqoob Magray. f. Manzoor Magray. g. Sadique Magray. h. Dilpazir Magray. i. Muhammad Aamir Magray. j. Bashir Magray. k. Qayyum Magray. l. Yaseen Magray. m. Imran Yaseen marga. n. Shafi Magray. Akram Magray. p. Rafique Magray. q. Sajjad Magray. r. Muhammad Javed Magray. s. Kabir Magray. t. Kamran Magray. u.Saqib Magray 2. MAGRAY HILLS KANCHIKOT: This is a big village which starts from the Magray Market on Ali Sajal Road and goes to the Tolipeer, a prominent Hill top of Kashmir. Few personalities of the Magray Hills are:- a. Haji Aqal Hussain Magray. b. Tariq Magray. c. Ghulam Nabi Magray. d. Gulzar Magray. e. Havildar Yaseen margay. f. Subedar Rafique Magray. g. Hanif Magray. h. Havildar Azam Magray. i. Muhammad Ashraf Magray. j. Kala Khan Magray. k. Hakim din Magray. l. Capt Yaqoob Magray. m. Asghar Magray. n. Sadique Magray. o. Haji Abdullah Magray. 3. MAGRAY ABAD RAWALAKOT: This is a small town in Rawalakot valley on Banjosa Road in Barmang. Few of the personalities of the area are:- a. Abdul Majeed Magray. b. Muhammad Arif Magray. c. Muhammad Razaque Magray. d. Muhammad Imtiaz Magray. e. Muhammad javed Magray. f. Muhammad Shoukat Magray. g. Muhammad Riaz Magray. h. Muhammad Ishaque Magray. i. Muhammad Shakeel Magray. j. Muhammad Jahangir Magray. k. Muhammad Khurshid Magray. l. Muhammad yaseen Magray. 4. MAGRAY VILLAGE BAGH: This village starts from Magray city Lower Bela and extends to the prominent Hill top of Kashmir Lasdana. This village comprises of 600 houses 100% of the Magray tribe people. Few personalities of the Magray village are:- a. Dr Mir Akbar Magray. b. Gohar Magray. c. Abdul Hameed Magray. d. Fazal Gohar Magray. e. Aslam Magray. f. Hayat margay. g. Liaqat Ali Magray. h. Ghulam Nabi. i. Wali Noor Magray. j. Sakhi Muhammad Magray. k. Haseeb Magray. 5. KHARL MAGRAYAN: It is a small area in District Bagh, people of Magray tribe are settled here. Few personalities of the area are:-a. Muhammad Ashraf Magray. b. Muhammad Farooq Magray. c. Abdul Hameed Magray. d. Gulfraz Magray. e. Akram Magray. f. Haji Hakeek Magray. g. Muhammad Khurshid Magray. h. Fazal Hussain Magray. i. Shakeel Ahmed Magray. 6. MAGRAY GALI LIPA VALLEY: A prominent Hilltop of Kashmir in Lipa valley. Few personalities of the area are mentioned here:- a. Capt Ghulam Hussain Magray. b. Ghulam Rasool Magray. c. Pervaiz Magray. d. Prof Kosar Magray. 7.MAGRAY CITY KUTTAN: A small town in Kutton Neelum valley comprising of shopping centres, shops and residential area, comprising mainly of Magray Tribe. Few notables of the area are:- a. Mangta Magray. b. Shahzaman Magray. c. Arshad Magray. d. Shahzaman Magray. e. Ali Akbar Magray. f. Asad Magray. g. Matloob Magray. h. Attique-ur - Rehman - Magray. i. Oamer Zaman Magray. j. Amjid Magray. 8. MAGRAY ABAD ATHMAQAM: A small town in Neelum valley on Kel Road near Athmaqam. Few personalities of the area are: - a. Muhammad Mustafa Magray. b. Muhammad Khurshid Magray. c. Muhammad Subhan Magray. d. Shakeel Magray. e. Ashraf Magray. f. Mushtaq Magray. g. Ghulam Hussain Magray. h. Abid Magray. 9. SARDARI MAGRAYAN – A remote area of neelum valley. 10. MAGRAY VILLAGE MARCHKOT: This is the largest village of Abbaspur town comprising of more than 1000 houses exclusively of the Magray Tibe. Few personalities of the village are:- a. Sher Akbar Magray. b. Havildar Karim Magray.c. Muhammad Sharif Magray. d. Muhammad Afsar Magray e. Muhammad Rasheed Magray. f. Manzoor Magray. g. Muhammad Rafique Magray. h. Muhammad Raheem Magray. i. Saleem Magray. j. Ali Akbar Magray. k. Muhammad Azeem Magray. l. Muhammad Yaqoob Magray. m. Mubashar Salam Din Magray. n. Sadique Magray. o. Hameed Magray. p. Kutab Dinb Magray. 11.BANDIAN MAGRAY: This is a remote village of Abbaspur town comprising of more than 500 houses entirely of the Magray tribe. Few personalities of Bandian Magray are: - a. Muhammad Arif Magray. b. Mir Akbar Magray. c. Muhammad Bashir Magray. d. Muhammad Ashraf Magray. e. Muhammad Nazir Magray. f. Sakhi Muhammad Magray. g. Jalal Din Magray. h. Muhammad Saddique Magray. i. Shoukat Magray. j. Rasheed Magray. HISTORY OF MAGRAY TRIBE: Two books “Magray the martials and warriors of kashmir” and “Magray in the eyes of history” have been written by Sajjad Latif Magray. Launching ceremony of these books was held on 1st Feb 08 at press club Rawalpindi and was attended by the prime minister of AJ&K and his cabinet members. Title of books is written by the following known scholars and historians of the country. 1. Dr. M. Ashraf Qureshi – chairman department of kashmiriyat Punjab University Lahore. 2. Dr.Sabir Afaqi – author & historian. 3. Dr. M. Sadiq Malik author & historian. ORGANIZATIONS OF MAGRAY TRIBE: 1 Magray Supreme Council: is the supreme body of Magray tribe, empowered to take all sort of political and socio economical decisions in the best interest of the tribe. 2. Magray Educational Society (regd): promotes educational activities in the tribe and even outside the Magray tribe. 3. Magray Tanzeem (regd): was established to provide a platform and organize the Magray tribe. 4. Magray Welfare Trust: Looks after the ill, poor and needy people of the Kashmir in particular and Pakistan in general. 5. Magray Foundation.

Jayasree Saranathan said...

So Magrays were originally Rajput (Hindu) warriors who migrated to Kashmir and later embraced Islam.
Do they remember their origins?

Anonymous said...

Sorry to say this, but it is hard for me to believe the ‘Velirs (Vellalar)’ migration from the Dwaraka. The reasons are:

(i) The patron god of ’Marutham’ where the ‘Velirs’ lived was ‘Indira’ and not ‘Balarama’ or ‘Krishna’.

(ii) In the land of ‘Tamils’ there were two ‘Agamudaiyar’ castes: one being the sub caste of the ‘Velirs (Vellalar)’ and the other being the sub caste of the ‘Mukkulatthor’. The word ‘Agamudaiyar’ of the ‘Mukkulatthor’ is the colloquial term of the word ‘Agam Padaiyar’. The former means ‘the one who owns land’, while the latter means ‘soldiers who owns land’. It was ‘Agamudaiyar’-the sub caste of the ‘Velirs (Vellalar)’ who actually governed those farmlands.

(iii) The ancient ‘Tamil’ society never followed a four Varna system.

(iv) The terms, ‘Velir’ and the ‘Vellalar’ are ‘Tamil’ and not ‘Sanskrit’.

(v) Unlike the Vedic society, ‘Tamils’ were ‘Matriarchal’ who don’t follow ‘Gotra’.

These are reasons based on which my human mind forces me not to accept your theory. If you have any evidence to contradict my belief, please do post. I am very much eager to look upon it.

Jayasree Saranathan said...

Thanks for the comment.
I think you have not read the many other articles on this topic in my blog.
I request you to type Velir and Dwaraka in the search box.

Before you do that let me reply to the points you have raised.

>>(i) The patron god of ’Marutham’ where the ‘Velirs’ lived was ‘Indira’ and not ‘Balarama’ or ‘Krishna’. <<< & 2 nd comment
VeLirs were spread in many places.

In his commentary on Paayiram of Thol kaapiyam, Nacchinaarkkiniyar says,
“Agatthiyanaar ..Thuvaraa-pathi pOndu,
nilam kadantha nedu-mudi aNNal vazhi-k-kaN arasar padhiNmaraiyum,
padhiNeNkudi VeLir uLLittaraaiyum,
AruvaaLaraiyum kondu pOndu,
kaadu kedutthui naadaakki..”
(Agasthya went to Dwarkapathi and brought back with him
18 kings of the lineage of Krishna who measured the land (as Thrivikrama),
18 families of Velirs and AruvaaLars and
had them settled in the lands by clearing the forest tracts)

Two information are contained in this.
One is that Agatthiyar brought 3 types of people from Dwaraka.
18 groups of royal families belonging to Yadava - of Krishna’s family.

18 groups of people including VeLir and
Aruvaalars were brought by him.

If we know the background of this migration (which is explained in my blog), we will know the hollowness of Aryan - Dravidian divide - which is established beyond doubt through many sources including Genetic analysis (all of which can be found in this blog)
When seen with such a fresh look at past history, you will how true the claims of the original Tamil lands to the South off Kanya kumari.

A sample verse from Silapapdhikakaram is given here:-

ஊழிதொ றூழிதொ றுலகங் காக்க
அடியிற் றன்னள வரசர்க் குணர்த்தி
வடிவேல் எறிந்த வான்பகை பொறாது
ப•றுளி யாற்றுடன் பன்மலை யடுக்கத்துக்
குமரிக் கோடுங் கொடுங்கடல் கொள்ள 20
வடதிசைக் கங்கையும் இமயமுங் கொண்டு
தென்றிசை யாண்ட தென்னவன் வாழி
(சிலப்பதிகாரம் - மதுரைக் காண்டம் - 11. காடுகாண் காதை)

So what Tholkapapiyar stated in his paayiram

”வட வேங்கடம் தென் குமரி
ஆயிடைத் தமிழ் கூறும் நல் உலகத்து”
is later to this to this olden past where the division of land was different and not as told by Tholkaapiyar as

மாயோன் மேய காடு உறை உலகமும்
சேயோன் மேய மை வரை உலகமும்
வேந்தன் மேய தீம் புனல் உலகமும்
வருணன் மேய பெரு மணல் உலகமும்
முல்லை குறிஞ்சி மருதம் நெய்தல் எனச்
சொல்லிய முறையான் சொல்லவும் படுமே.

Jayasree Saranathan said...

The 2nd information in Nacchinaarkiniyar’s narration (given above) fits in here.
He says that the migrants were settled after “kaadu kedutthui naadaakki”

Those places were the Yadavas (aayar) settled and given an identity

மாயோன் மேய காடு உறை உலகமும்

The 5 way (rather 4-way) division of land is thus a later creation after the boundary of Tamil lands send with the current kanya kumari. When Dwaraka was submerged, the Pandyans (Thennavan) also suffered loss of theior land to the sea and moved to the present day Tamilnadu.

This is noted in Kalith thogai (Mullaik kali) 104

மலி திரை ஊர்ந்து தன் மண் கடல் வௌவலின்,
மெலிவு இன்றி மேல் சென்று, மேவார் நாடு இடம்படப்,
புலியொடு வில் நீக்கிப், புகழ் பொறித்த கிளர் கெண்டை,
வலியினான் வணக்கிய, வாடாச் சீர் தென்னவன்
தொல் இசை நட்ட குடியொடு தோன்றிய
நல் இனத்து ஆயர், ஒருங்கு தொக்கு, எல்லாரும்-

There had been an ancient aayar kudi which migrated upward – to the present day Tamilnadu.

There had been olden clans noted in these lines:-
“தொல் இசை நட்ட குடியொடு தோன்றிய
நல் இனத்து ஆயர், ஒருங்கு தொக்கு, எல்லாரும்”

It is on these line we have to probe the antiquity of Agamudaiyaar, Kallar etc (You have not yet the article on KaLlar, I suppose)
Again while commenting on the 32 nd sutra of AgatthiNai-iyal
(மன்னர் பாங்கின் பின்னோர் ஆகுப. 32 )
Nacchinaarkiniyar repeats the same view.
“Malaya Madhavan nilam kadantha nedumudi Annalaluzhai
nara-pathiyaarudan kONarntha
padhiNeN vagai kudi-p-pirandha VeLirkkum..”

(the kings born in the family of Krishna and along with them
VeLirs born in 18 families (kudi) were brought)

The VeLirs were many – aai andiron is one among them.

In 201 of Purananuru, you will find the same information given by Kapilar while he wanted IrungovEl to marry the daughters of Paari.
Parambu malai, Paari, IrungO Vel – all belonged to the Velir clan.
Kapilar says,
படுமணி யானைப்,பறம்பின் கோமான்
நெடுமாப் பாரி மகளிர்; யானே
தந்தை தோழன்: இவர்என் மகளிர்;
அந்தணன், புலவன், கொண்டுவந் தனனே;

Then continues

நீயே, வடபால் முனிவன் தடவினுள் தோன்றிச்,
செம்பு புனைந்து இயற்றிய சேண்நெடும் புரிசை,
உவரா ஈகைத், துவரை ஆண்டு,
நாற்பத்து ஒன்பது வழிமுறை வந்த
வேளிருள் வேளே! விறற்போர் அண்ணல்!
தாரணி யானைச் சேட்டிருங் கோவே!

IrungovEL was the 49th king in the lineage of Royalty that ruled Dwaraka. His ancestor came out from the Homa kunda, says Kapilar.
Drishtadymnan (brother of Draupathi) was the one whop emerged from the Homa kunda.
From this poem it is known that InrungO vEl belonged to the lineage of Drushtadymnan!
The talk of MaayOn is later to their migration.

It is logical to deduce that after the Tamil lands were shattered by the deluge that coincided with start of Kali yuga (Yugap pralayam) and dislocation of people from Deep South and migration of people from dwaraka brought in by the Tamil muni, Agatthiyar, new guidelines were formulated which were narrated by Tholkappiyar.

Jayasree Saranathan said...

Your 3rd comment <<<(iii) The ancient ‘Tamil’ society never followed a four Varna system.>>>
Not so.
Quote from Tholkappiyam :-

2. புறத்திணையியல்

அறு வகைப் பட்ட பார்ப்பனப் பக்கமும்
ஐ வகை மரபின் அரசர் பக்கமும்
இரு மூன்று மரபின் ஏனோர் பக்கமும்

9. மரபியல்
நூலே கரகம் முக்கோல் மணையே
ஆயும் காலை அந்தணர்க்கு உரிய. 71
படையும் கொடியும் குடையும் முரசும்
நடை நவில் புரவியும் களிறும் தேரும்
தாரும் முடியும் நேர்வன பிறவும்
தெரிவு கொள் செங்கோல் அரசர்க்கு உரிய. 72
வைசிகன் பெறுமே வாணிக வாழ்க்கை. 78 மெய் தெரி வகையின் எண் வகை உணவின்
செய்தியும் வரையார் அப் பாலான. 79
வேளாண் மாந்தர்க்கு உழுதூண் அல்லது
இல் என மொழிப பிற வகை நிகழ்ச்சி. 81

Jayasree Saranathan said...

Your 4th comment <<<<(iv) The terms, ‘Velir’ and the ‘Vellalar’ are ‘Tamil’ and not ‘Sanskrit’.<<< and the 5th
Could be. They could have coined a Tamil term. But words like Paari, Ovi were there – in Kashmir tradition too…..
Moreover Sanskrit had been the base language for Vedic or Dharmic studies.
Tholkaapiyar’s teacher was trained in 4 vedas. Tholkaapiyar himself was trainwed in Ainthiram, a grammar book of Sanskrit. Please read Parimelazhagar’s comemtary to ThirukkuraL to know how ThirukkuraL is a Naan marai. Some excerpts of it can be read in this blog. Please search in the search box. The KaLavu, karpu, marriage and almost all the practices were Hindu dharmic. Vedas are the basis for them.
நிலம் தரு திருவின் பாண்டியன் அவையத்து
அறம் கரை நாவின் நான்மறை முற்றிய 10
அதங்கோட்டு ஆசாற்கு அரில் தபத் தெரிந்து
மயங்கா மரபின் எழுத்து முறை காட்டி
மல்கு நீர் வரைப்பின் ஐந்திரம் நிறைந்த
தொல்காப்பியன் எனத் தன் பெயர் தோற்றிப்
பல் புகழ் நிறுத்த படிமையோனே.
And Tamils was not Matriarchal!
From Purananuru -9
தென்புலம் வாழ்நர்க்கு அருங்கடன் இறுக்கும்
பொன்போற் புதல்வர்ப் பெறாஅ தீரும்,
Birth of son was very much the obsession of the Tamils to do Pindam ceremony.
This is unmistakably a Vedic way of life and a patriarchal tradition.
Mr LanVar,
There are many many indications in Tamil texts in addition to these.
What is given here is “oru paanai sottrukku oru soru padam”
Thanks for writing.
Please read all the mails in this blog on Dravida, tamils, Dwaraka emigrants etc.

Redheartkid said...

Tholkaapiyar’s teacher was trained in 4 vedas. Tholkaapiyar himself was trainwed in Ainthiram, a grammar book of Sanskrit.

The above comment has a problem. The Ainthiram is not a grammar book, rather it is a book on Vaastu, it is not a Sanskrit book, it is a pure Tamil book. See links below

It is the original book from which the Hindu Vedas are just imperfect derivations.

And for Naan Marai, you can goto the below link.

Naan Marai is not the four Vedas. It is ARam, Porul, Inbam, Veedu

Jayasree Saranathan said...


Please read Tholkaapiyam (it is easy to understand) to know for yourself the facts I have stated. You can get the text in the link

The link you have provided on Ainthiram does contain what i said. Didn't you see that?

And before telling me that it was about Vastu sastra, know my credentials (you would have known if you have read my other posts) as an astrologer and researcher in astrology for more than 2 decades! I know the differences between maya, vishwakarma and narada schools of vastu and who among them is close to Athrava vedas.

This naanmarai stuff - and aram, porul ... Dear Sir, they are the 4 purusharthas called Dharma, artha, kaama and moksha which are to be treaded with care for which the Vedas are the guidelines.

Thirukkural is Naan marai (Brush up your memory on what you read about the other names of Thirukkural) because it states the vedic guidelines for the first 3 purushartthas. Veedu is left out. It is because if one takes care of the first 3, veedu (moksha) is the automatic result. This told by the ancient pulavargaL who have praised Thirukkural.

Read lot of basic things from ancient texts and original commentators like Nachinaarkiniyar and Parimelazhagar and not today's writers who cannot go beyond 500 BC in the past.

Know that Tamil's past is deep into more than 10,000 years in civilised existence but that is not anathema to Sanskrit. Sanskrit had been the language of vedas for all times. That was the education in those days. All the poets of sangam era have had knowledge of this education and incorporated it in their works.

My suggestion is to read the many posts in this blog to get a better idea of all these.

Anonymous said...

1. It is the original book from which the Hindu Vedas are just imperfect derivations.

In the word Ainthiram, 'Ainthu' no doubt means five in Tamil and not in Skt. It talks about the five basic building structures of the cosmos.

Whatever you said may be right, since you are in the field for 2 decades. You may be wrong too, because we are all bit by the AIT bug (Aryan Invasion Theory) and we still like to stay in the MST hangover (Mother Sanskrit Theory), never willing to come out.

Anyways, I dont want to disturb you from your topic. Good luck

Jayasree Saranathan said...

Hello, it seems you have not yet gone through the wiki article I quoted in my comment which is however there in the comment you sent earlier.

It is called Ainthiram because it was given by Indran.
There are many references to this in Tamil texts. In silappadhikaram, in maduraik kandam, the pilgrim from Mangadu in chran lands tells abput this and adiyaarkku nalalr explains Aithinthiram as preached by Indran. There are references at other texts too on the nature of this text. Maya had never been involved in gramarian works.

AIT is defunct. There are innumerable articles in this blog about it. Whereas Sanskrit is the language of vedas. Anyone from any part of the world wanting to study or learn vedas can do so through Sanskrit only. Even Maya (this Maya is of Surya siddhnatha) of Romaka desa (where this is situated will be explained in my next post - please watch out ) studied sankrit to write down the teachings he received from Surya and given as surya siddhnatha.

Anonymous said...

The word Aintiram does not take:its coinage from the word Indra,but in fact refers to the five creative aspects of the cosmos.

In Tamil' Aintu' stands for five.
The five aspects are
1.The primany source of creation (moolam),
2.The vibration factor leading to creation or the Time factor (kaalam),
3.The order inherent in the vibration(seelam)
4.Form emerging from the primary source through the vibration (kolam) and
5.Finally the end result being the form emerging from the primary source through the vibration (kolam) and finally the end result being the all –encompassing universe.

From this you can understand Ainthiram is in no way connected to Indira. In fact Indira comes in Rk where he destroys dams and is called the destroyer of fortesses.

Link that you gave was that of Aindra and not Ainthiram. The two are different and they two have different links. Seems you never went to the link I gave you.

Whatever history we have been reading since the British ruled us was written by linguists, authors and not by historian and scientific proofs. The real history is yet to come.

Please go through the complete discussions I sent about Naan Marai and when you go through that please leave behind your20 years of exp. and use logical thinking.

Good luck

Jayasree Saranathan said...


The basic problem here is you have not yet known what is Vyakarana which is what Ainthiram is all about. You have taken trouble to explain what is ainthu. such kind of explanation of linguistic nuances is what Vyakarana is all about. Unfortunately for you - Aindiram is not what you said. You seem to have just started browsing, do a wider browsing of the net, there is enough material on the net to tell you what is that Ainthiram that Tholkaappiyar studied.

In addition,learn what is naanmarai,Ainthiram (the link you have provided is not read be you obviously!!), AIT's current status et al.

That mayyam article is based on outdated views. Learn the latest developments - all of which are being discussed in this blog. The one who does not have the aricchuvadi in these issues can not understand the articles of my blog. That is what is happening with you. Wish you best of luck to get into more learning.

Jayasree Saranathan said...

>>Link that you gave was that of Aindra and not Ainthiram. The two are different and they two have different links. Seems you never went to the link I gave you.<<

you dont seem to have gone through the two links
one link obviously tells about Ainthiram formulated by Indra which Tholkaapiyar learned.

But somehow you want to rubbish it and are looking for some loopholes to promote what you wish to believe. You just looked at the other link on vaastu and believed that veaastu is Ainthiram. Vastu is not Ainthiram The link on vastu reveals it.
please have patience to read the two highlighted ones, both vaastu and maamuni mayan.

Vaastu obviously contains what is vaastu and not ainthiram
In maamuni mayan, the word ainthiram comes as the sastra learnt by mayan. Dont ignore it. He learnt ainthiram - anyone learning sanskrit would have to learn vyakarana sastras of which ainthiram is one.

It is said in the link that maya wrote vaastu's aithiram, which is about the 5 elements dealt in vastu sastra. Aim poothamgal endru solvathu pol ainthiram. If you argue that this is the ainthiram, we can quote many such 5s. Even the word "iyengar' is derived from Ainthiram. There are 5 issues which are central to practice for an iyengar and therefore such a practitioner is called as Iyengar.

Obviously Tholkapaiyar did not ascribe his knowledge of Ainthiram to vastu but to the grammar work Ainthiram, which is universally accepted as a grammar work.

I again request you to widen your search and hit at the right kind of knowledge.

Anonymous said...

Sorry, i dont think you will even try to understand the real thing about aindra and aintiram. Aindra was one among the six schools for the Othuvars.

Aintiram, is a Tamil book that claims to have been written in 13,900 BC,that tells about the basic structure of the cosmos from infinite positive space to infinite negative space. The energy conventions etc. that form the basis of Vaastu and Vastu. (You have to figure out the diffence between Vaastu and Vastu from your 2 decades of exp.) It also tells about a certain technique of building a space craft. (Does space craft building come under the subject of grammar! Dont say this to anyone, people will laugh at you madam!!!)

In fact you can even call Aintiram as an ancient book of cosmo physics and not some grammar book.

I will give you a link that shows the book's English translation and a little bit of explainations about it

watch the video, you would understand what Aintiram is all about.

And in fact I was expecting you to take up that word vyakarana. And thats all that people like you like to use to show your supremacy. Anyway continue your work, and remember one thing as i told you earlier, apply some logical thinking and a bit of practical knowledge and leave that superiority mind that you try to show in every post of yours coz even a less exp. guy like me may know something that you dont.

And FYKI, I have been surfing the net and searching for information for more than a decade. Also I have all collections of the Tamil books you mentioned and in fact more than that in both of my personal libraries (hard copy and soft copy) To tell you the truth I aint a book worm. I just read the main themes.

Jayasree Saranathan said...

Vyakarana is made for people like you - who get the derivations wrong.

I know one can not show the way to people who are not in a mind set to receive it.

However before closing this topic I wish you to see these works besides your decade old search of the net - for you wont get the works of Nacchinaarkiniyar and Adiyaarkku nallar on net.

* Tholkaapiyar mentioned in payiram, that he learnt Ainthiram , a grammar work (vyakarana for deriving roots and meanings of words) of Indra is validated by commentators including Nacchinaarkiniyar.

* In Silapapdhikaaram, maduraik kandam, kaadu kaaN kaathai verses, 99 & 152 on Ainthiram given by "Vinnavar komaan" (Indiran) the commentary by Adiyaarkku nallar and later day writers point to the grammar work by Indran.

* A derived understanding from this that Othuvaars have 6 schools of which Ainthiram is one is that it is one among shandagavigaL (repeated in punranaanuru Urai 224 also)which means shad- angas (the 6 vedangas of which vyakarana is one anga) This Tamilised word Shadangavi from Shadaanga is the root of the word Shadangu or sadangu in Tamil.

* Just enough go through Purananuru & the olden commentaries recorded by Dr U.Ve.Sa, you will know what is naan marai as a bonus.

* what Tholkaapiyar says as Inthiram is the grammer work of Indira which is accepted by scholars. To know more on why this Indira conenction is there to Tamils and Tamillands, read the pathigam of Manimegalai and its commentary

* Maya's Ainthiram is the Energy map which is trapped as mandala with Brahmasthaan in the middle is given as a pic in one of the pages of the AUM centre. This is what vaastu is all about - the basis from which the application on Bhumi, Praasaada, Yaana and Shyaana sprang up (go search for these words in the net!! you wont understand them unless you STUDY vaastu)

Good luck on your search

Anonymous said...

Let me know about "Oori"?

Anonymous said...

Please don’t make confusion through internet
Velir and vellalar is completely distinct community. Velir is tribe, we can call them “Murka tribe (children of Maheswara/Shiva) vellalar is Yadava tribe brought here by Agastya to South india particularly for make “ila bhumi (tamil nadu) fertile so they employed in paddy area to create pool such things to maintain water level of the earth also they were employed in temple construction also.
Because of the duty of vellalar, maintaining water level in earth, they known as vellalar but Velir is tribe who have light (truth), showing high level spiritual backround of that tribe
Initially Vellarar were employed for fertilise earth and collecting tax for Velir chieftains. Ayar was employee of Velir’s for collect tax from paddy landowners, gradually after Kingdome setup Velir lost their control on ancient Tamil nadu (five landscapes -Kurinji, Mullai, Marutam, Neithal and Palai) and the great Tamil culture destroyed it was synonyms of Vedic culture run by Velir
Please note Agastya is not a one person probably who reaching sidha level from velir tibe known as Agastyar (Agama+ Thiyan) so he is himself belongs to Velir tribe. Thiyan = who born in fire it indiacting murugan.
There is no cultural similarity Velir and Vellalar. Velir tribe have Shaktheya background and they worshiping Mother Goddess and Velir was happy for fight and died for truth.
Still velir tribe is existing in kerala Malabar region. If somebody what realise that please go and study about that community you will realise real Velir custom and culture still existing with them
This tribe name is Thiyar (who born from fire). The myth behind the origin of this community saying. One upon a time 7 maiden sisters bathing in river located in deep forest, Maheswara got attracted with them and the god became fire and attracted theses seven maiden sisters and made them pregnant 7 beautiful children born to the 7 maiden sisters t. Born from fire form of Shiva so called Thiyar. Accordigly the first children thiyar tibe have 8 illam. Boy from same will will not marry as it taboo...

Jayasree Saranathan said...

@ anonymous

I have not made any confusion between Velir / Vel and Vellaalar - but you have done that. The Velirs are agnivansh people going by the verse by kapila. They must have shared a genealogy with Chauhans, Paramars etc of the Aravalli. The submergence of Bet Dwaraka researched by SN Rao was that of the last deluge experienced in Dwaraka. The Velir, royalty and 18 tribes who earlier migrated from Magadha along with Krishna (ref Mahabharata) were the people who lived there until then and shifted to TN along with Agasthya.

I concur with most of what is said in the book Velir Varalaru and rely on historic sources. The Vels are same as Beldars of Maharashtra and Gujarat who did not migrate to tamil lands. Many info on Velirs is written by me widely in many articles in this blog and will be exclusively brought out in the later part of my Tamil series.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

velirs are not vellalars...velirs are yadavas...வேளிரும் வேளாளரும்

வேளிரே வேளாளர் என்று சொல் ஒப்புமையை ஒட்டி எழுந்த தவறான நம்பிக்கை தமிழக வரலாற்று ஆய்வாளரிடையே நிலவி வருகின்றது. இந்நம்பிக்கை பெரும்பாலான ஆய்வாளர்களுக்கு கேட்பதற்கு இனிதாக, எழுதுதற்குச் சுகமானதாக இருப்பதால் இதனை விசாரணைக்கு உள்ளாக்க அவர்கள் ஒருபோதும் தயாரில்லை. சங்க காலத் தமிழ் வேந்தர்கள், மருத நிலத் தலைமக்களாவர். ‘வேளாண்மையாகிய உழவுத் தொழில்’ செய்துவந்த, மருதநிலக் குடிகளான வேளாளரிலிருந்தே வேந்தர்கள் தோன்றினர் என்பது இவர்களின் நம்பிக்கை. ஆனால் வேளிர்களை வேளாண்மையுடன் தொடர்புபடுத்த முடியாது என ஆர். பூங்குன்றன் பின்வருமாறு கூறுகிறார்:

“வேளாண்மைக்கும் வேளிர்க்குமிடையில் உள்ள தொடர்பு பல படிநிலைகளைக் கொண்டது. வேளிர்கள் உண்மையில் வேளாண்மையில் ஈடுபட்டது மிகவும் பிற்பட்ட வரலாறு. சங்க இலக்கியத்தில் வேளிருடைய ஊர்களில் நெல் விளைச்சல் மிகுந்திருந்தது என்று கூறுவது கொண்டு வேளிர்களை வேளாளர்களின் முன்னோர் என்று கருதுவது பொருத்தமுடையதாக இல்லை. வேளிர்கள் கால்நடை வளர்ப்பினராகவும் போர் மறவராகவும் இருந்துள்ளனர். சங்க இலக்கியத்தில் வேளிர்க்கும் கால்நடை வளர்ப்பிற்குமிடையில் உள்ள தொடர்பு பற்றிய சான்றுகள் குறைவாகவே கிடைக்கின்றன. ஆனால் வேளிர் பற்றிப் பின்னாளில் கூறப்படும் மரபுத் தோற்றக் கதை அவர்களின் தொழிலைச் சுட்டுகின்றது. வேளிர்கள் அனைவரும் தங்களை யாதவர்கள் என்று கூறிக்கொள்வது கால்நடை வளர்ப்புக்கும் அவர்களுக்கும் இடையில் உள்ள தொடர்பினைச் சுட்டும்.” (தொல்குடி - வேளிர் - அரசியல், செங்கம் நடுகற்கள் - ஓர் ஆய்வு, பக். 93-94.)

துவாரகையை ஆண்ட கண்ணனின் வழி வந்தவரே வேளிர் என்பதைப் புறநானூற்றுப் பாடல் ஒன்றும் நச்சினார்க்கினியரின் தொல்காப்பியப் பாயிர உரைக்குறிப்பும் புலப்படுத்துகின்றன. எனவே பூங்குன்றன் அவர்கள் கருதுவதுபோல் வேளிரை யது குலத்துடன் தொடர்புபடுத்தலாமேயன்றி வேளாண்மை செய்யும் குடியுடன் தொடர்புபடுத்த முடியாது. உண்மையில், நம் ஆய்வாளர்கள் கருதுவதுபோல் ‘வேளாண்மை’ எனுஞ்சொல் உழவுத் தொழிலைக் குறிப்பதல்ல.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

velirs are not vellalars... velirs are yadavas king yadu lineage chandravanshi kshatriyas

K.S.Aparna said...

I have heard a few Kashmiri surnames that seem to sound like tamil words. For example the surname Kadalbaju of kashmiri origin means near the sea. Kadal in tamil means sea.

Jayasree Saranathan said...

Thanks Aparna.

'Chilla kallu' is how the Kashmiris call the first snow fall. It is Tamil word "kal" (stone)which is cold (chillu)(pieces of hail / snow) This word Chillu is not new or colloquial Tamil, as Andal uses the word 'chillenRu' in Thiruppavai.

Similarly there is a place called "Sillahalla" in Nilgiris which was in news recently for the power station that is proposed there. Nilgiris is also a cold place experiencing snow fall.

Tamil was the original language of mankind many 1000s of years ago when mankind was confined to the South of the equator. I have written many articles in Tamil connection to the Incas, Polynesian and Indonesian islands.

Check this link for tamil remnant in Africa.

Check this website for a pic of a Chidambaram Deekshithar as recorded in 1909 for his African looks, Please note Chidambaram Deekshithars have a tradition of not marrying outside their sect.

Complete article in:

Raghuram Ilango said...

Aa means cow in tamil, Ayar means cowherder kings. Not tax in tamil ayars are origins of tamil who ruled kaniyakumari to tranvancore with pothigaimalai(courtallam sengottai) as one of its its boundary from early sangam period to 14 th century.their house sigil is elephant.they were mentioned as first tamil rulers hence they named konars ko means cow,siva and king. Velirs are from north but not ayars.

Raghuram Ilango said...

Velirs mother tongue is also tamil athiyaman neduman anchi who is also velir one among kadai ezhu vallal gave avai grandma rare gooseberry which can extend ones life period.he gave to her so that tamil can live longer. May be before they left tamil may be their mother tongue and tamil may be one and one language in india at that period.

Sathyashree said...

Dear Jayashree ma'am, thanks for putting up the discussion here!! Loved reading about the Yadava lineage and their migration. I, myself come from that community situated in Tamilnadu, hailing from Sivaganga regions of Aakavayal and Devakottai. But I have a specific question, if they were Vedic, why don't they know Sanskrit, or practice Vedic practices? I don't feel like we have any unique custom/prctice in place that distinguishes us from others.. Or even the trace of who we are, is left with us..

Jayasree Saranathan said...


Passage of Time erases or modifies lot of things.